Episode 8: Ellie Lowther, Trans Educator and Founder of the Free to be Me Project

INTRO: Welcome to the Trailblazers Podcast series by Periplum, sharing the experiences of trailblazers living and working in the Tees Valley: the innovators, activists, workers and adventurers as told in their own words. Episode 8 Ellie Lowther, Trans Educator and Founder of the Free to be Me Project Claire [Interviewer] So this is Claire. I'm in Stockton-on-Tees with Ellie.Could you tell us your full name, please? Ellie [Interviewee] Hiya Claire. Yeah, my full name is actually Elisha Rosemary Lowther. Claire [Interviewer] And, where were you born? Ellie [Interviewee] I was born in Middlesbrough.I was actually born in the front room of 30 Wentworth Street, which is a two up, two down terrace in Middlesbrough town centre. Claire [Interviewer] And where do you live now? Ellie [Interviewee] I now live in Coulby Newham, which is [laughs] a one up, one down house [laughs] in Coulby Newham. I do work in Stockton and all of my community based things is in the Stockton area, but I'm very much a Teesside person. Claire [Interviewer] And so where are we, Ellie? Ellie [Interviewee] We are sat in the den. The den is… it's almost like, you know, when you make a vision board? This is almost like a physical representation of my vision board. So the Free to be Me project, this is our headquarters and we are in our community room, which I think you'd agree it's a nice comfortable space. I try to make this room not officey or authority looking at all because a lot of people who come to my door for support, they might have, like, not so positive experiences with authorities. So, you know, clinical places if you will, so when they come in here they find that they feel as if it's authentic and that's what's meant to be. So what I have here is I have the community room where we do work, and we have our groups like our over 50’s group. We have some of the, like, groups in 1 to 1 meets in here and also next door we've got a beautiful little counselling room, which is also a 1 to 1 space, and also doubles up as a changing room because, like, we understand if you're running LGBT group and you don't have changing facilities, then you're not really running an LGBT group, you know, ‘cause not everybody is out out. Some people come from drab to fab, and they might get changed on site when they come, and then they'll get changed to go home again. So, I think from my own experience of seeing what I think would have helped support me on my journey, it's helped me to shape my vision of the type of support, structure and community initiatives that I'd like to champion. You know, just in general. And it all started through the quote, which is “Free to be Me” and that any one of us can be bullied or discriminated, dependent on the audience. Until we're all truly free to be our selves, we're never going to create that safer, more inclusive place that benefits everybody. So I understand when people look at me they may just see a trans woman, but I understand because my main thing is I champion intersectional inclusion. I understand people may see a trans woman, but they don't see somebody who is Anglo-Indian: I'm half Indian, half English. They don't see somebody who's a person of faith, they don't see someone who has experienced poverty. They don't see somebody who's been a survivor of domestic childhood and sexual -all separately- abuse. They don't see a person with, say, PTSD, they don't see a person with disabilities, they just see a trans woman and they bring the cache that that brings with it. And in today's culture and society, that can be quite testing. Claire [Interviewer] going back a bit. Ellie [Interviewee] How far? I'm really old… Claire [Interviewer] [laughs] Ellie [Interviewee] I'm 60 year old next year. Claire [Interviewer] Well you don't look it. Ellie [Interviewee] I know well, I always say to people like, I'm asking autistic people more of neurodiverse people in general. I don't know if I added that onto the list of intersectional, but [laughs] I'm that as well. It's probably other things to go on. What you find is people are when you're neurodiverse, generally look young for their age. And I think it's because there's always,yeah…Aldous Huxley had this quote about the secrets of genius, and it was to never lose your inner child. And I suppose it's recognizing that we all need to just keep staying curious and keep trying to see things from a viewpoint of curiosity rather than from a viewpoint of trying to just objectify and marginalize, segregate, because that's the world that we're living in it seems I try and take a different view. Claire [Interviewer] Did you grow up in Middlesbrough? Ellie [Interviewee] I did, I did. It was tough to be fair, because back in those days me dad worked at the steelworks, me mam worked at either the Crisp factory or Tetley's, so one would be working nightshift, one would be working dayshift. There were 6 of us in a 2 up, 2 down house. So there’d always be one parent asleep on the bed settee in the front room, most of the time. And on a Friday night, that was the night when, for a lot of families in our area as well, and I'm not disregarding things that went on. But back in the 1970s, domestic violence wasn't something that the police would act upon. So my childhood was like Friday night was fight night, you know, where they'd go out all happy, and then they'd come in after a night out and they just, like, seemed to argue about things from years ago, like festering sores. And it would get to like 1:00 [am] in the morning or whatever. And then all the kids would be woke up, we were all awake anyway, but we'd be lined up and we'd have to choose. If you want to live with your mam or your dad. And obviously we choose our mum, obviously. So then me mama’d go up to a friend's house, which most of the time was just at the bottom of the street. [laughs] We'd stop there, be like ducklings walking behind mother duck.[laughs] and I remember at the time, one time we were walking down and one of my friends on the street was walking up past the other way with his mum, and they'd been through the exact same thing, you know, it reminded me of the movie Shaun of the Dead. You know, when they go on passing each other in the street and it's just two lines of people. And then the next day they'd come along and like me mam and dad’d shake hands, they’d go home, and then it'd be like sunday tea with vol-au-vents. And that was pretty much the way of it. And I think you get used to that sort of life. I wasn't aware back then that I was half Indian. I was brought up with a lie that we were English, French and Portuguese, and it was only through a 23&me DNA test I found out on my father side- it's Indian [laughs] you know, but it's the same story as a lot of Anglo-Indian people who left Calcutta at the partition. So it's nothing special as such. But it is a thing. A family denying their Indian heritage to avoid any perception of racism. That was really profound for me, because it made me understand why my father can't accept me. Because my father can't accept me because on some deep level, he can't accept himself. Or he doesn't believe the truth about his own ethnicity, maybe. That's how I see it. Whether that's right or wrong, you know I've got nothing but love for my dad. And if I could be there for him, I absolutely would. But it takes two. It takes both sides to want something like that. Like, obviously I'm trans and I don't think I had a problem when I was small. I got stuck into my schooling in Fleetwood Street School, even though I was fierce and I was classed as being quite gifted. I came out of junior school with A+, A+,A+ for absolutely everything. When I went to senior school everything fell apart because, I think, not understanding my own neurodiversity,. I think the transition to the big school was a big failing for me, but also when I was younger, my early dreams, I was always wearing like this checkered sort of dress and there'd be an actor from movies I was growing up with called Audie Murphy who was in the cavalry films. He was always coming to rescue me in my dreams and like, you know, I couldn't tell me parents that in my dreams, I was female. I'll just try to ignore it, because in the 1970s, as far as I know, being trans wasn't a thing. There was a trans person I now know a couple of streets away, and they were labelled as the bogeyman. And you keep away from them, you know? So there wasn't any positive representations of how I was feeling inside back in those days, that we were aware of. I've learned since that there was - we used to watch like Terri Rodgers on TV on the Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club show, but nobody mentioned she was trans. We didn't know she was trans and like that was a bitter pill to swallow when I found out years later, because it just made me see the person who we used to bully, the person who was an outcast, who lived two streets away from us, who we were told was a massive predator. And you keep away from that person. It just made me feel so sad for the life that that person must have had to endure. You know, I'm lucky I have a little bit of a platform, but I fully am aware that that platform is built on the bruises and the tears and the deaths of those people. So I take what I do quite seriously, and us, while still trying to keep cheerful about it all. I try and be very respectful to the history, if you will. At secondary school, the first time I went to P.E. the amount of dysphoria I had over the thought of having to get changed in a room full of boys was unreal. So I ended up being really good at writing notes for P.E. so I didn't have to do that. When you’re not able to work out who you are, and you’re going through puberty with no support, no one to talk to about how you're feeling. ‘Cause if I had told any of my friends how I was feeling and that would have just attracted even more bullying because I've always been me, I understand now, I've always been me. I just didn't realise who me was back then because we didn't have words to say. From being classed as gifted, within a very short time I was classed as sub educational [laughs] and I was put in the lower grade groups for everything. I was a little bit offended at that because I thought I was much cleverer than I was given credit for, but now, in context, I can see why all that happened. But I do understand also that because I was dealing with me and I couldn't come to terms with understanding who I was, understanding why I thought like I was a girl, why I thought I could see the world through female eyes, in a world where women were much more marginalized then men- back in those days they truly were. So why would anybody with perceived male privilege want to identify as the type of person that has no privilege, unless it's who you actually are? I get it now. But then I didn't get it. But, because of, like, the fear of telling - I didn't tell my parents. I didn't tell my caregivers. That caused a detachment with me and my care surroundings. So I wasn't able to tell them when things went wrong in my life either. You know, I always just tried to keep a smiley face on. I got a job running a milk round off on a morning. I used to be out really early on a morning, running that off- the money I'd make from doing that, I'd buy myself cream cakes and macaroni cheese. That's where I discovered the concept of comfort eating and like that was my thing. And I've had a lifelong difficult relationship with food. I can't lie. I either eat nothing or I'm just as likely to have a multi-pack of Ripples, if you know what I mean [laughs]. And like, there seems to be no in between with that, but because I wasn't able to talk to my parents, it created the detachment. And that for me led to nearly disastrous consequences. Certainly profound and long impacting consequences. You see I was about 15 years old and there was some petty argument over some petty thing, which in the grand scheme of things didn't really mean that much. But in my head it was massive and I decided I was going to run away from home. Over the years, I was obsessed with David Bowie, and I'd lock my life away in his songs. Like London Boys and all this type of stuff. And it's all like romanticizing this like apocryphal journey away and all this type of stuff, you know? And, one morning, when I used to leave the house to go and do the milk round, and I used to turn right to go and do the milk round. And then this one morning, I went out the door and I turned left and I went up towards Newport Roundabout instead. And I hitched a lift. I ended up maybe having 4 or 5 lifts in total and I ended up in Bridgend, Mid Glamorgan, but somewhere along the way, in between Doncaster and Bellevue, I ended up hitching a lift with this van and it turned sour, which I got into the van of the person who I believe was the infamous Robert Black and like I only was sure it was him. When I’d seen like pictures of him after he'd been arrested. Like years on and I heard him in an audio interview that he'd done on the news. I come in from work one day and I heard his voice, and it took me back to that moment instantly.. And when you know, you know. I reported it to the police years on and I think the police lost the files to start with. I think it was maybe a bit too out there for them. But when I chased it up again a few year earlier to just to make sure that it was logged, I was told, I think I had to speak with somebody that, I dunno if it was Salford Police Station or… It was all very protracted. But the news come back through that, like, it was rare that he actually admitted fault for any of the things that he was even in prison for. And at some sense, it'd be too hard to prove. The strange thing about all of that situation was that David Bowie died in 2016, and Robert Black died the following day to David Bowie. And for me, it was like two ghosts in my life passing, like within a day of each other. That was quite profound. You know? So I didn't say anything. Because I didn't say anything, I was picked up by the police in Bridgend, Mid Glamorgan, and there was no duty of care from the police or anything. I was put in a cell accused of pinching milk in the area, which was quite comical considering I used to deliver milk in Middlesbrough. You know [laughs] the irony wasn't lost on me. My mum and dad came- they had to borrow money to get a train to come to Bridgend Mid Glarmorgan to pick me up to take me home. I come home, there was no social services involvement that I'm aware of. No one asked me if I was okay or anything like that and I didn't have the words to say what I'd been through. I was in the van with Robert Black, like pretty much for about 5 or 6 hours on a night time. And like, I'm not going to repeat what happened, but, like you could take your imagination to the worst places and you probably still wouldn't, like, encapsulate it. And I feel as if I only survived that by again, that feeling of sort of like just freezing, and like being silent and saying nothing. I mean, I find it difficult to be quiet just in general as a human being. Some people would wish I’d shut up, I understand that as well, but I believe that's what saved my life that night, ‘cause in my mind, I just had pictures of like runaway, found dead and all this type of stuff, you know, I thought I was done for I really did. Anyway, I wasn't able to tell my parents at the time, so I held that secret for about 20 odd years. I discovered recreational drugs, and for me, cannabis was my thing. It just helped me block things out and it helped me to not have to worry and not have to think about all of this type of stuff, do you know what I mean? I think if I had had someone to talk with about the gender dysphoria when I was younger, I don't think the dominoes would have fallen over in the way that they did in my life, if that makes sense. I've always been a person of faith, and like because of that, you know, I remember growing up, I was just saying, remember, the Lord will provide, you know, and like sometimes when there's nothing you can do, it's just like- all you can do is just believe in the best and hope for the rest almost. And I think that's sort of how I've come through my life. And I look back and I want to see many occasions, there's been a time in my 20s when the dice fell a certain way, and I was looking down the barrel of a sawn-off shotgun. There's been times when, like, for the click of a finger, I wouldn't be with you here today. You know, I had this trauma trigger thing where I couldn't handle buses going past me. 'Cause I could almost like feel a bit of a, like a step jump, you know, like in front sort of thing. And it's really difficult. When I look back, I'd recognised some of the challenges that I faced. I was a single parent. I ended up with four children to two different women,’cos I didn’t know how relationships worked, and, like most of me children, I mean, like, my family, as is, like my father, my brother and my sister. They haven't spoken to me since I came out as trans, and although I never closed the door on reconciliation, I don't hold out much hope. So I remember when I was working on the post, I was a single parent and I wasn't a good dad. I. I think I was more like a friend than a parent. Once my kids got beyond 15 year old, I felt like they had outgrown me. [laughs] You know what I mean? Like, it was really strange. But I remember I was working on the Post and I got a concussion at work, and then I sat down, flashbacks of like, some of the horrific things I've been through in my life, and I thought I needed to go and get some counselling or something. So I went to the doctors, and that's where I ended up being diagnosed as chronic depression. And I went through counselling, which was on and off for about seven years. At the end of that, I felt as if I'd dealt with the whole Robert Black thing. I dealt with many things, but I was just convinced that I wasn't trans. Why would anyone choose to be trans? But I understood I could see the world through male and female eyes. I just thought it made me a bit more cultured. I thought it just made me a bit more…wiser because I could say a bit further, if you will. And it was never about the clothes or anything like that, at all. For me, it just goes back to that thing about me dreams. I mean, in my dreams at this point, I was getting married to Jamie from Shameless. [laughs] I was. Tara Palmer-Tomkinson and Tricia Penrose were me best friends in my dreams. It's crazy, crazy stuff. You know, I really was. But if one of my kids had of come out as gay or trans, I wouldn't have been happy. And I see now that because I was oppressing things in me. I’d of struggled…allowing them to live their true self, I think hurt people hurt people. And I understand that experience, you know, now, to my shame, obviously I wouldn't think that way. But after them seven years at counselling, not enough. And maybe in anything that I could be, that meant I wasn't trans. My doctor asked if I’d like some psychoanalytic psychotherapy. To which I said yes. And, I wasn't in that for a long time before it was plain that, to me, it wasn't a case of am I trans or not? It was a case of understanding I am trans whether I want to be or not, but understanding that I have a choice. I don't have to act. I don't have to socially transition. You know, I can just be. And just with that knowledge of understanding, like, I can see the world through male and female eyes and, and just move forward like that, just as being a bit different but I started writing lists, positives and negatives, like what would happen if I came out as trans on the negative side, it was - your family'll disown you. You'll never work again. No one will ever love you. Your church will kick you out. Pretty much a checklist of how to be a pariah in the area that you were moderately respected in. And on the positive side, there was only ever one word. And that one word was me. And I said to myself that it was my life, you know, if my life's going to mean anything at all, then my life has to be authentic. It can't be anything but. ‘cause otherwise I'm just a shadow of someone else. So once I had made the decision, then I couldn't wait and I socially transitioned really quickly. I had 2 years wait to be seen by the gender clinic, in them two years I ended up having to leave Middlesbrough because it was too tough for me in Middlesbrough - I was beaten up, spat out, ridiculed in the streets. It was horrible. It really was. And I moved to Lingdale in East Cleveland and people said ‘oh they won’t have you up there blah blah blah’. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And I think if you join a village, you've got to join a village. You can't expect a village to join you. You know, I volunteered in the food bank. I was my church's representative at the Northern Synod. I stood for election in the council elections. I come second, but I beat Labour and Conservative.[laughs] I didn't want to be a councillor. I just wanted the experience of standing. And I lived there until I moved back down here, when I started doing some of the support things that I do. I ended up creating the first trans specific safehouse in the UK that was in Stockton. Maxwell's Corner. I think it's 2015/2016. Over time we stopped counting around 2000 but I’ve supported over 2000 people on their own transitional journeys. I can't tell you how many thousands of people have been sat in a training session with me. For the National Citizen Service alone there was 5000 graduates over my time with them. I've worked in prisons, schools, hospitals, councils, you know, just provide and support education and training. I try and see the gaps. And then I think I'm a person of passion over the stuff I do, my community stuff, and I do feel as if it's down to my sense of faith, you know? And like, oh, I just want everyone to be okay. But I understand that if you come through this door looking for support, it's not a one size fits all because you might have a million things going on. You might be from a different continent, you might have different faith, you may have a different need, do you know what I mean? And I think support has to be there for the individual. We started the elders group in here every Friday. We had a look around and there was no elders groups operating at all in the region. And someone says, oh yes, well, there was one in Darlington a while back. Well, they held it a few weeks no one turned up. So they ended up doing something else. And I think that's part of the vision for the whole Free to be Me project, because I'd like to build the project, which is built on people, rather than built on trying to get funding bids and satisfying KPIs and stuff. It's holding space for the marginalised. So if we hold space for the marginalised, that means every Friday between noon [12pm] and three [3pm], the kettles here, the biscuits are here. I’m here. I have a couple of volunteers. I'm blessed to share the same passion. And the first week we had 2 people come, second week we had 2 or 3 people come. We hold the space, we keep going. We now have 20 people on our books for the over 50s group, and they don't all come at once. We can fit 20 people in the room, but we regularly they have 10 or 12 people here on a Friday. We have a competitive Scrabble league on the go, you know, and all we have to do is hold this space and the community is there. Similarly is the choir. At the beginning of lockdown, I had to do something so I managed to get a job with partners for care, which was just a few houses down from where we’re speaking right now on Yarm Road. And I had this idea about a choir where you sing songs that means something to you. And I love Les Miserables so I wanted to be able to do a ‘One Day More’ flashmob, and now Systemic is a thing, do you know what I mean? Sing your song, true equality matters: inclusive choir. We won the inclusion award at Catalyst in 2025, and we have people coming from as far as Newcastle and Glasgow to sing with us. Well we have one lad, he was in choirs for 23 years, no one ever give him a solo. I mean, like you’re getting a solo. We call ourselves the best little choir in the world. Change the world, one summer at a time. We say that because we don't judge ourselves on how we sound. We have non singing members. But this particular lad, I decided his voice’d suit Dirty Old Town by the Pogues and him taking that song and singing that- the confidence it brought. Similar was when we were called out as winners of the inclusion award, the confidence that it brought the choir in unreal. Most of the people who stand up with Systemic suffer from social anxiety. And it's not an LGBT choir, it's an everyone choir. It's about true equality matters, where everyone comes through and there's no hierarchy. So ARC Stockton gives us a space absolutely free. We allow people in absolutely free. Nobody pays anything. And that's the whole thing, it’s not a case of cheaper seats for people on lower incomes. It's just everyone comes in equal and I think out of all of the stuff that I've done in my life, you know, all of the community stuff. And I mean, I've even delivered in the House of Commons. I've done quite a lot. I got invited to be a fellow of the Royal Society of the Arts, they’d said that further the understanding of inclusion around the UK. I've worked in so many different places but the best, the best thing I've ever done was creating Systemic. So now on a Wednesday night I sing loud and proud with my crazy, crazy queer choir of kooks, do you know what I mean? And that is my mental health, that's my joy for the week, you know? And like the bigger vision beyond this is that in this world, if people are feeling marginalized and they feel as if there's no space to do anything like positive for other people of the same marginalization, I'd like to speak to them, like, first of all, like let’s sit and work and we’ll put a lunch and learn together. And we'll put it out there to let people know about this issue. And then let's look at having a space where people can get together like in here, with the same ethic as everything else. Everyone comes in absolutely free of charge. And I suppose the ethic around the Free to be Me project of not having to rely on grant funding means that work will be developed, which will be worthy, which will be able to be sold and that will pay for the rent and pay for the biscuits and hopefully launch some careers of future role models. That’s the aim of it. Like I say, I’m really old, so I'm getting to the legacy age of my life. Whereas I'd like to, to plant some trees I'm never going to see the fruit of, if that makes sense. Claire [Interviewer] Could you tell me a bit more about the House of Commons? Ellie [Interviewee] About the House of Commons? That was, what a pointless afternoon that was. It was actually [laughs] it wasn't. I've been down twice. I went once for the Trans Equality Forum and on that one on the way back, I managed to see Les Mis[erables] in the West End. And they had these, you know, the cheap discounted seats. So I was up in the Dress Circle in the Queen's Theatre and, for me, it was the best seat in the house, so that was perfect. I felt as if the forum was very performative, and it maybe give the people who turned up there a feeling that they've been somewhere without actual real change. And I was asked by my MP, well the MP from here Dr Paul Williams, to go and deliver a trans 101 down there. And I went in there and you go in Portcullis House and all this stuff and there’s a big soldier there, big police on the door with the guns and all that stuff, and it's all very frightening. But you go up there and you're in the room, you get set up, and there's a few MPs sat around and most of them are just looking at their phones. You know they're there, but I get the feeling that they were there but they weren't there there, you know, and there'd be a few people ask questions, but I'm a little bit disillusioned in general with, like, the political system. I think there's things happening that individuals have no say over. You know, you can lobby your MP for everything, but there's a bigger machine at play with a bigger agenda it seems. And I'm not going into like conspiracy theories and that.I'm just on about, like, it's so difficult for the one person to affect change for masses of people, you know, in a positive sense, especially in these testing days, especially if you're actually trans, because like trans, it's currently the bogeyman, same way as gay people were back in the [19]60s and [19]70s. So for me, like I was there and they were really nice to us. And we went through the session and they asked some questions. And on the surface, it seemed as if it went down really well but my own view was that it was a waste of time, because it felt more of a vanity thing. So I could say, oh, I delivered in the House of Commons. But that would only happen if it created meaningful change. Afterwards we had a tour where we went into the Terrace Bar, you know, apparently only the MPs go, so they say, as they let you in, [laughs] and we sat out on the terrace, had our lunch and did a couple of social media videos from out there, you know, and that was that. I came away from there feeling as if we did good, and there was maybe an opportunity to go from that, to step on to do more stuff, but on a bigger level but obviously, like we had the likes of Covid and stuff come along, same as in 2019. I was a finalist in the National Diversity Awards, positive role model category. And that was lovely that, because I managed to go to Liverpool and I love Liverpool. And I chased Tinhead from Brookside along the corridor. [laughs] Like there’s some really good stories about that from back in the day and that was amazing that night. I didn’t win it, I was a finalist. But I was the only binary chap, well I was only trans finalist on the evening at the event, and there was over 28,000 nominations. I'm not one for awards, by the way, at all I, I find them quite icky. But the National Diversity Awards I thought ooh, when I heard I had been nominated and then, like, I didn't even promote it. And I think I only had about ten votes. So when I heard I was a finalist, I was like, oh, oh, what is this thing? [laughs] Do you know what I mean? So I, then I realized it's a different thing. It's not like, yeah, your local backslapping things, you know, it's ‘cause it's a national thing, it’s something which is out of the localities hands, if that makes sense. It's more about people nominating, and they have a big panel of judges. But this is from all over the country. So there's no regional bias as such, because within the region, there’s, like it doesn't matter where you are- every region, every council, there's like those voluntary sector organisations and there's a pecking order, and there's a hierarchy and it all. But I often feel in some ways we’re like the Bash Street Kids, or the pebble in the shoe, because we do things a bit differently, you know, and like, you can create differences, with the actual aim of wanting to exist without having to apply for like an awards for all funding or something like that, you know? And if we achieve it, then I think it's a model that can be replicated by a lot more grassroots organisations, you know. Claire [Interviewer] I was going to ask you, what does diversity mean to you? Ellie [Interviewee] What does diversity mean to you? The thing is, it's a subjective thing. So like I'm a big fan of Søren Kierkegaard he was the father of existentialism, a philosopher. He wouldn't have liked me, but that's okay, he wouldn't have liked you either. Claire [Interviewer] [laughs] Ellie [Interviewee] He didn't like himself in many ways. And you just go around and he’s speak to people, whether that were paupers or princes. And his whole thing was about truth being subjective. Now, there's a social work like theory model called the social graces, and that splits people up culturally, education, class perception, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, so many different things. And I actually deliver a supported self-reflection lunch and learn using that. And what we do with the information is we ask you to recognise your own case study from all of these different factors. And then we look at the Johari’s window, which is about your open self and your hidden self, your professional boundaries and barriers and stuff. And then we invite you to put all of this information from your social graces. How do they represent in all of these boxes of Johari's window? And if you go through that process, you will understand what diversity actually means, because diversity is all about the individual. It's about having space for people to, to be and not have to mask, not have to change their shape, their opinions, their whatever to fit in. It's about leaving a space for everyone, an easy way to represent it is if you see the world as 360 degrees. Some people like they call themselves proudly old school because they know what they know. They've got no room to learn new things because they know what they know. But it's impossible to stop learning while you're still breathing. So if you are that person's old school, then you are only saying maybe 10, 20% of this 360 degrees. A community that seeks to grow and build and understand each of them more progressively, they will not be more focused on their own fixed views. They will be looking around their community, and everyone will be learning from each other. And everyone will be like feeding off and feeding to everybody else. But even in that space, you will not have the whole 360 degrees covered, because you have to physically leave space for people who are not yet in the room. You have to leave space for people to tell you that they are not included. So I say to people, an inclusive world is an absolute impossibility, but you can have more inclusive people. So inclusion’s a journey, not a destination. So,like, because of that, what diversity is, is recognising that every single one of us is an individual, you know, every single one of us. You can have three Christians - they’re all absolutely different. You could have three Hindus. They're all different, you know, depending on a different experience, different triggers, different responses, different reactions to many things, you know, and like sometimes it's only a minor level, sometimes it’s on some quite profound levels. Look at sexuality, for instance, like you could have three people growing up in the same family. One of them could be straight, one of them could be bisexual, one of them could be gay, what decides that? It's just because we're all individuals. And you are you. I mean, obviously, I don't know the inner workings of your mind. I would also suggest that you also don't know the inner workings of your mind, because you are also on your journey and you know more now than you did ten year ago. And in ten years time, you will have another ten years experience which you will know more from where you are today. So what diversity is, it's almost like the constant unpeeling of the onion. And each one of us is actually our own individual. I think the understanding of non-binary is a stepping stone to the world where we actually can start looking and talking and campaigning for the rights of intersex people. So many people in our society are put through surgery to fit into the binary, because there's no structure for an intersex person to exist. In a similar way that a non-binary person can't get a DBS check without compromising their identity. So like when you say what does diversity mean to me, diversity means everything, because diversity means everyone. I don't know if I would explain that in a coherent way. Claire [Interviewer] No, it's a very eloquent way. Ellie [Interviewee] Thank you. Claire [Interviewer] I was thinking, what are you looking forward to, at the moment? Ellie [Interviewee] I'm not going to lie, some days I wake up and I don't want to wake up - really don’t, especially in today's world. I often think of Prospero from The Tempest, when he retires he says, I killed God. He’ll look out to sea and his every third thought will bring his demise. And I think as you get older, I think your thoughts do go to your passing. And leaving this planet doesn't scare me anymore. And that's a scary thing in itself because I've grown up over time with like suicidal ideation and all this type of stuff. As many people in our community do. Because sometimes it's easier to not be here than to deal with the challenges that you've got to deal with just to exist in this world if I’m honest with you, yeah. I go home and sometimes I've go to bed and I literally don't want to wake up. I just don't. I wake up on a morning and I'm like, alright then we’re here. Oh.... I've got like Jack Dee’s attitude - have a bit of a chunter to myself then I go out the door. Once I'm out, like I do do as much as I possibly can in the area that I do. But I also don't beat myself up too much because I do understand that I do have conditions such as PTSD, such as chronic depression, and I don't take anti depressants, or anything like that. So finding out about being neurodiverse, I went through me assessments and like the therapist said to me “I think, you know, hey, these people don’t, you look like you might be PTSD sort of thing. And like when the therapist said to me they says, like: “ I don't really see any ADHD but, like, what chimes loudly is autism.” And I looked at her and I was offended. I said to her, “but I don't look like that.” I said “what does that look like”? And I thought [sighs] I don't know, [laughs] you know, because that was my own biases. But I realise when I was growing up, I was the baby who cried constantly. I was the kid who couldn't have milk because of the texture. Even to this day, I can’t have milk because of the texture. So I was brought up on Carnation in my bottle, which is how I’m going with like the big bone structure. I’m the one who asked me Nana: “what’d happen if I put my arms on the electric bars on the fire?” You know, when they went yellow, and Nana said “why don't you find out?” And I did. I’m the kid who in junior school, when we used to have our exercises, the kids did have to skip around not using a skipping rope, just like a little skip step. And like I was the only kid who couldn't do that. It was like everyone's doing a Rubik's Cube, and I haven't got a clue, do you know what I mean. And I realised that, like, how we mask to fit into situations, to seem regular, to seem like normal, to seem neurotypical, and then when you realise the masks bit by bit, you find it harder to keep them in place. I have a crazy little thing, whereas, like if I'm stood in the lift and like if somebody’s in the left and the door opens, I do this crazy little jumpy screamy thing and I've got no control over it whatsoever. It's ridiculous. So like 5, 6 times a day then me and another person in this building will spend a minute or two laughing about the interaction that we've just had.With me jumping up and screaming - it's like a knee jerk thing. It's just crazy. It's like, I don't understand how relationships work.I just don't, I pretty much don't understand how friendships work either. You know? I'm still trying to work it all out. People see me as a confident person and doing this, that and the other and I go home after I do all me stuff and I just stagnate. You know, it's really quite surreal that, like, I could be with my choir in Stockton Town Centre singing loud and proud, but I'd struggle to walk through that same town centre just to do my shopping, do you know what I mean with social anxiety. So I'm still trying to work a lot of it out. You know, I understand the term high masking, but it saddens me in a way, because when you’re brought up in a world where your mental health wellbeing isn't recognized, then for you to get through you have to mask- it isn't a choice. You know, It's just not a choice. And then when you older and you recognize the masks, then you sort of see the world a bit differently. And I say, I'm still trying to figure out and I think, because I'm trying to figure it out. That's the thing that keeps me alive, you know, I really do. So I'm looking to the future I’d like to think that, like, I’d have space in my life for a relationship, but I sort of feel as if, no, I don't think there will be. And I don't think it's about being able to be in a relationship or whatever. I think for me, it's, I can't see myself compromising my life anymore for people. And as you get older on that, like, 1 to 1 relationship world, if you will, to be compromised on both sides. And I just don't feel as if I have the energy or the want or the will or desire to go down that path at all. So I see the future as being solitary. I have a lot of found family in my life, I’m Auntie Ellie to so many people and I absolutely love it, if I'm honest with you, because some of the people I’m Auntie Ellie to don't have a famil-y so that fulfills a need in me as well, because that will fulfill my maternal needs of having someone to look after, do you know what I mean, and I don't give them pocket money or anything but like I am the one that they go to when they need advice. And the amount of times that I hear “Auntie Ellie”, do you know what I mean. And, like to be fair, I take safeguarding very seriously. So I'm just pleased that there is people out there who will reach out to me if they have any worries or doubts. So I think life-wise, the, what am I looking forward to? I'll tell you what I am looking forward. I'm trying to rack me brain what I'm looking forward to. I think the challenges trans people are facing, and I do think that will get better in time and even with how bad it is now, I think it's still better now than it was before Section 28. People talk about how bad section 28 was, they want to try growing up in the 70s, that was much worse than section 28, what there you go. I’m about to start the second year of a social work degree after just completed, successfully, my first year at Teesside University. And I found doing that as I've been doing a lot more reflection myself, and that's been a bit of a game changer for me, if I'm honest with ya. So, like in that sense, I see myself like hopefully qualifying to be a social worker and I'm not sure that I'd be out in the field being a social worker, I maybe, I don't know. But what, whatever community work I'm doing, whatever organisation I’m creating, running, founding, whatever, I think bringing like, you know, qualified social work skills to that. Will just make anything I'm doing in that area more capable moving forward. I'd like to think I could inspire other trans people to believe that they can achieve in today's climate and anybody listening to this, if they’re still listening after all this time, well done, have a cup of tea, go touch some grass - touch it, don’t smoke it [laughs] but, er, [laughs] but I’d like to think that if people wanted to, like work in this area, if people wanted to be part of the way forward, then I would hope that they would reach out, you know, because I want this Free to be Me project, to be a space where others can come in and use the concept of Free to be Me to champion their perspective on life. You know, you could be somebody who's got disabilities, who was trans, you could be somebody who's from a religiously intolerant culture, who's gay or a lesbian. You could be somebody who’s in a wheelchair who’s gay. You could be Islamic who’s gay. It doesn't matter- any marginalization I'd like to think that you could walk through this door and a. there would be support for you. b. There would be a place for you to actually learn, create and grow. You know, all of the stuff I do, it's like we have the three things that you need to make sure that people feel valid - you need to be able to empathize with people. And then you need to be able to help give people the foundation for them to step forward with purpose, rather than to go out there with a question unopened. They're not going to get whacked. I mean, I know some people see me as the indomitable Ellie Lowther, but you've got to be strong for that. Claire [Interviewer] I was thinking, Ellie, who have been your fellow travelers on your journey? Ellie [Interviewee] Y’know, I think over time, I remember when I first come out as trans, I was living in Middlesbrough, and I set up a bit of a social group, we called it Cleveland Transgender Association. And we used to meet up in this sort of village, we used to meet up above a pizza shop. And one of my dear friends, Michelle, that's when I first met her. And she's still my friend to this day, you know. Now she'll come here with her wife and like, she's not from this area, but, you know, like some friendships have endured over that time. Sadly not all do, you know, because especially when you're looking at people who are in transition, sometimes once people get to a place where they can pass as a cisgender person, then they can sometimes move away from the community. And I understand that as well. And I've got, there's one person in particular for the past eight years, and that's our Emma. So Emma lives in Glasgow. She actually comes from Skelton originally and she left Skelton before she transitioned, ‘cause it was too tough. And then she'd seen when I was living in Lingdale, she was almost like surprised that I had ran to the place that she'd run from, d’ you know, sort of thing. And I, we used to chat on the phone and we got on like a house on fire, really did. She’d come down to see us and I'd go up to Glasgow to see her. So now, like, Emma- she's like my familiar.. She's like, [laughs] you know, she's, she's a massive emotional support for me. She gives me advice sometimes when I need advice, ‘cause sometimes I try and see the best in everybody, and that can put me in some vulnerable positions. So she's got a bit of a wise head on her shoulders. Keep me out of some harm's way because I'm a bit like Upsy Daisy wandering around the night garden at times. So I think one of the people on my journey, like, absolutely, is Emma, and she's going to be somebody who will be in the life until, until I see er off or she sees me off… [laughs] One or the other. I feel it's a bit like Rick and Eddie from Bottom - you know the 2 of us- Rik Mayall and Ade… It's interesting, you know, because like, people come into your life and they go. I wanna share one person in particular. When I was a kid in second year junior school, there was a teacher called Mrs Grange, and she was such a positive teacher for me, but she was only with us for a year, and then she was gone, I was like “ O where is she? Where is she?” and on... Anyway, years and years later, I happened across Anne-Marie Grange and I says “are you blah, blah, blah?” she says “oh yeah. “And I oh my God, da, da,da,da,da,da 2nd Year Juniors all this type of stuff. Anyway, so we started chatting and we've had old video call and that's…and like the first time I seen her on the video call, I'm like, "Hi Mrs Grange". So she said “don't call me Mrs. Grange” I said “but obviously I'm going to call you Mrs. Grange. Do you know, what I mean?” Getting like she tells people now that I was one of her students and how proud she is of me and to hear that makes me feel really really good. D’you know, what I mean, and Iike just being able to reconnect with that teacher from second year juniors and like that to me is just out of this world. It truly is, d’you know. There's been friends that have come, there’s been friends that have gone. And I think some of the friends that have come and gone, some people aren't meant to come and stay in you life, some people are meant to come and teach you a lesson, or some people are maybe meant to come and receive a lesson. I don't know. Everything for a reason. It's a bit like that. I'm a bit of a fatalist in a way, but in one sense I’ve always felt in this life inherently alone, and I think that is tied in with the adverse childhood experiences of being detached, not being able to tell your caregivers and stuff. So it's almost like when I go through therapies and stuff, I feel as if it's like the long journey back to the self, if you will. You know, I feel as if I'm getting better and a bit more philosophical about life in general. I understand my frailties and my vulnerabilities but I’m beginning to get a better perception of my own strengths, if that makes sense. I wake up every morning and I know I've done a fair bit in the world of inclusion, and I was blessed when I was classed as a trailblazer. But what like I wake up every morning as if I've done nothing at all. And so, like, I just keep going. And I think if there was a superpower, my superpower is just I keep getting up, I keep getting up and that's it, you know? But I'm old and it's tiring, you know, sort of thing so [laughs] Claire [Interviewer] Ellie, who have been your trailblazers? Ellie [Interviewee] I was saying about all my heroes being dead. When I was a kid I used to lock my life away in David Bowie songs. Bowie'd be up there like The Boys Keep Swinging video, you know, similar with Tom Petty, to be fair. Similar was Elliot Smith when I was a older. Music is like really important to me. So like Strawberry Switchblade song Since Yesterday that resonated with me so much. I ended up interviewing Rose and Jill for my radio show and like, I play guitar now, but it was all because I wanted to learn how to play that song. I think physically trailblazers people I look up to, and like this is awful, but I really don't know. There is odd people that I have masses of respect for, such as like Anthony Young - he used to run Tees Positive Action. And when I was early in transition, the support he give me, I believe was a lifesaver. And like when I support people now, I support people in my mind in the same way that he supported me. When I was growing up I used to lock my life away in music and stuff. I used to love my radio, the radio presenters ‘d be like your friends. Er so I now do a radio show. I guess I'm pretty good at talking. Some people’d wish I’d shut up. I understand that as well. And I like to do a radio show that I would have appreciated when I was a child. So like when I think of trailblazers, I struggle, you know, cause like, you like, I don't think like picking musicians or the results of some lyrics of a song qualify. I think humanity from people is a thing so that's a question I struggle with. Maybe I don't like the concept of having heroes, maybe inspirations or someone who you want to do something for cos you want them to be proud of ya. And like I feel honored when people say to me, like about role model and stuff like that, because I feel like I grew up without any role models as such. but I have absolute respect for those who try to navigate life as we are today when I was a child, because, as I say, I have a platform these days, but it's only built on the bruises and tears and marginalization and deaths of those people.But those are nameless. Claire [Interviewer] Ellie, what advice would you give to your younger self? Ellie[Interviewee] I've done it. I used to have a dream where my older self got on the bus and my younger self was on the bus and I remember the older self saying to the younger self, you haven't got a fucking clue. Literally. That is what was said in my dream and like I tried to dissect and work that out for a long time. It was so surreal, like at the time, ‘cause when I was a kid, like my dreams used to go off into like the westerns and stuff like that, but there was one where I was on the bus, like when you're on the bus and like, there was somebody who I now know looks like me pre transition. There’s this grumpy, gruff person on the bus and in my mind in the dream, I knew I had to go and speak to that person. So I went and spoke to that person and they said to me “you haven't got a clue” but with the F-word in there as well. So I think if I was now as me looking back at me back then, that's quite a biggie isn’t it, because you’d only have one shot at it. Really, do you know what I mean.I’d just tell him that you're going to be alright. Because I think deep down my thing is, I want everyone to be alright. So I'd like to think I had the foresight to tell them that - I get lucid dreams, one of my best friends passed away unexpectedly a few year ago, days before Christmas. And then I dreamt of them nearly almost a year afterwards. And in my dream, I'm talking to them. And I knew in my dream that they'd passed away. But I didn't want to tell them that they'd passed away, because I didn't want them to disappear from my dream. So I'd give them a hug in my dream, and I could feel the hernia lump and everything. It was really surreal. Same that I've dreamt about my mam and I've never told my mam in a dream that she'd passed away. So I think if I could speak to the younger self, I don't think it’d be important to be absolutely truthful in the dream. What I think it'd be important would be to affirm and maybe give something positive, because that one positive thing could actually send that person's life into an absolutely different direction. Then one of doubt and fear. Claire [Interviewer] 100% - we’re almost coming to the end of the interview.I just wanted to ask if there's anything else you want to add. Ellie [Interviewee] [sighs] I think it's been quite informative for me to actually have the space to talk about all of this stuff, and you can guarantee there'll be a lot that I've missed in this. Absolutely. But I think, like there’s a flavour of some of the things that I’m facing and, and some of the ways forward. What I'd like to say is truth is subjective and everybody faces so much in this world and like and struggles in so many ways. But, as I was saying to somebody last week, you’ve conquered, you've got over absolutely everything that you've faced so far. So you are strong even if you don't think you are and like, tomorrow is going to be a better day, but you're only going to see that or prove it wrong by being her for it. Now I look at what's in ‘ere now . I look at this diversity den. I look at the counselling room, I look at what we’re creating here and I think to myself, wow, how has all of this happened? And I recognize it's only happened because we keep showing up. I think it's really important that we keep showing up because we owe it to ourselves. We don't just owe it to ourselves, we owe it to future selves. And we also to the memory of those that we've never even met, but we know the experience they’ve had. And in the same sense we owe it to the trans people of tomorrow, and the non-binary people of tomorrow, the intersex people of tomorrow. Because every step forward we take now benefits the community. So I'd say stay strong. And if people are isolated, reach out because there are communities out there, but you've got to be brave enough to access them. That's a you thing. I used to have to get a bus to Newcastle to go to the RVI for speech therapy years ago, and I once got off the bus. And I’m walking and there was a lady and she opens the door and she says oh, you're so brave. And I said to her, I was braver before I transitioned because I was pretending to be someone else. But I think that term brave when people say brave, I always say, actually, it's less brave to be your authentic self. The bravery is to stay hidden. Claire [Interviewer] To stay masked? Ellie [Interviewee] Isn’t it yes. Yes, absolutely. Claire [Interviewer] So Ellie, thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you for being a trailblazer. Ellie [Interviewee] Thank you as well. And thank you for selecting me, because there's plenty of people that can have that title. So I feel blessed that I was one of the chosen. Claire [Interviewer] And we feel very blessed for you to tell us your story as well. Thank you. Ellie [Interviewee] Rock n roll, we’re sorted. OUTRO: Thank you for listening to Periplum’s Trailblazers Podcasts funded by the National Lottery Heritage Fund. To listen to more of the series, and follow our projects visit our website at periplumheritage.com