Episode 9: Sarah Bullock, Environmental Scientist

INTRO: Welcome to the Trailblazers Podcast series by Periplum, sharing the experiences of trailblazers living and working in the Tees Valley: the innovators, activists, workers and adventurers as told in their own words. Episode 9 Environmental Scientist Sarah Bullock Claire [Interviewer] This is Claire Raftery, I'm in Stockton on Tees with Sarah. Where were you born, Sarah? Sarah [Interviewee] So I was born in Guisborough, but lived in Redcar. Claire [Interviewer] And where do you live now? Sarah [Interviewee] So I live in Blaydon in Gateshead. I moved up there 12 years ago now but I spend a lot of time in Redcar where my parents still live. Claire [Interviewer] So what was it like growing up in Redcar? Sarah [Interviewee] It was great. The school was lovely. I went to Ings Farm School in Redcar and the community was there, but it was very centered around either ICI or British Steel and, you know, looking back, you know, because your parents - it was many dads worked, and they either worked in ICI or British Steel, and if they worked anywhere else, it was a little bit weird and mothers didn't work. You know, so my mum was there when I needed her and it was, you know, it was great upbringing as that kind of industry was there. And then I think things got a little bit more difficult as the kind of works declined. Claire [Interviewer] When you say declined. Can you tell me a bit more about that? Sarah [Interviewee] So I think, in the kind of start of my teens, like when I moved to Rye Hills, British Steel got taken over by Corus and there was decline in ICI works. Areas were sold off. And, you know, and that's when the kind of unemployment happened and, you know, and things start to get quite tough, I think, for families and you started seeing that at school and you went to a school with numerous primary schools, went to one secondary school. And yeah. And I think, you know, you could see that in the way that kids were kind of acting, really. You know, there was a big variation in the kids that had like had family, had parents that had jobs and then others that didn't, and how well they did at school. Claire [Interviewer] Did you have any favourite landscapes? Sarah [Interviewee] My parents always, from a very young age, loved going outside and exploring, so we were like walking in the countryside when it wasn't cool, going the Lake District. And so it was a huge part of my life getting outdoors and, and kind of exploring the countryside and I think that's why I ended up in the environmental career that I ended up in, really. Claire [Interviewer] Did you have a favorite walk near Redcar? Sarah [Interviewee] Yes. I mean, I still do. It's Captain Cook's Park near Gribdale Gate. And walking up to the top of Captain Cook’s and seeing the landscape around, looking over to Roseberry Topping, but then also seeing in the distance the juxtaposition of Teesside with the industry and knowing that you know you live there because of the industry, but you've got this amazing landscape and countryside on your doorstep. Claire [Interviewer] So what were you like at school? Sarah [Interviewee] I would say I was very committed. I wanted to do my best, but it didn't come naturally, I think. I always had to work and I felt like I had to work harder than a lot of my friends. You know, I was in one of the top tiers at school, but I would go home and I'd spend hours on my homework and still not quite get those top grades. But, you know, I wanted to do well. So I just kept going, really, you know, when I get there in the end. Claire [Interviewer] And did you get there? Sarah [Interviewee] Yeah. I mean, my GCSEs were okay, you know, they weren't top tier, but they weren't bad. You know, they were good enough. And then I moved on to Prior Pursglove College in Guisborough. which gave me that kind of.. I guess it was more academic, you know, secondary school’s a bit about surviving really in some ways. And there was a big difference between those of us that did well at school and those of us that were just there because they had to go, whereas Prior Pursglove was the first time I really felt like everyone was there to learn and do well and push themselves. So I really enjoyed that for the two years. But I went off to do geology, geography, chemistry and maths. Really loved the geology, geography side of things. Chemistry…hmm [laughs] it was alright and the maths was alright as well. But like, yeah, definitely. That's where the love of the kind of geology especially came through with some amazing lecturers there. So I really enjoyed that. Claire [Interviewer] What is geology? Sarah [Interviewee] So geology is a study of rocks primarily that are underneath the ground and how they are formed over years and how they act really. But then it goes into what I do quite a bit now, which is how do you use those rocks in engineering and how do you build a building? How do you found a building? How do you reuse a rock in the construction industry? But it also then feeds into things like soils as well, and how are soils produced and how we kind of look after soil. Claire [Interviewer] So what happened post-school and education? Sarah [Interviewee] So I decided I didn't want to get a job - that was a bit scary. [laughs] So I applied for university and initially looked at County Durham, got a place, but unfortunately didn't get the results I wanted. So I had to go what was called through clearing at the time, and picked a slightly different- cos. I was going to go to Durham and do geography - but did a bit of a pivot through clearing and went to Sheffield instead and did a course called Natural Environmental Science, which was a mixture of ecology, geology and geography, which actually, looking back, really fit with what I was enjoying at Prior Pursglove and gave me a bit of the ecology side as well. So I did that for three years. Really enjoyed that, and then came back to Redcar for the summer after I finished and thought well I’ve got to get a job now, and then as I was looking for jobs in the newspaper, I saw there was an advert to do an MSC at Sunderland in Environmental Management and that was paid. So I was like, wow, okay, EU funding… So yeah, pivoted to do that for the year, which really opened my eyes as to actual management of the environment and what was happening at that time was a piece of legislation that came in from the EU called the Environmental Protection Act. And just as I was leaving Uni, 2003/2004, the government and local councils were trying to work out how they were enacting that regulation into their day to day guidance, and so really, that course was brilliant at looking at that legislation and saying, right, okay, what job does that equate to? Which then was the first time I heard of contaminated Land. And it was. Yeah, it was a revelation really, because it took aspects of geology, having to understand what was beneath the ground and then took things like pollution, because it was all about historical pollution from previous industries, and then it linked to upbringing that…living in Teesside, having that previous industrial history on your doorstep and fundamentally wanting to make a difference in actually taking a site that's derelict and contaminated and making it into something new for its new purpose, in addition to protecting the environment and the people around it. That was my MSC and then, yeah, went into contaminated land, but first went to the Environment Agency and they took me on as like an interim post, basically. I sat in the groundwater protection team, but it was more focused on contaminated land and how to support councils in enacting and making sure that they were actually driving towards identifying contaminate land in their areas and investigating and then assessing how they might remediate a site. So it was really interesting from someone fresh out of university to really understand these new regulations that were brought into UK law, but then understanding how you go about assessing a site from start of looking like a desk study and seeing what could be on-site to actually taking soil samples, groundwater samples and assessing the risk, and then understanding what you might want to do to remediate a site. And so that was the start really, of my real interest in soil as a kind of medium on sites and that kind of protection of it. But initially it was more about protection of humans and the environment in general, you know. Cleaning up sites, basically, so that people can use them. But also, like, from a social value point of view, you end up with a site that is contaminated, tends to be derelict and they become unusable and a blot on the landscape. And people live by them for years and years and years. And that has a big impact on communities. So it was good to be part of something where you investigate a site, and in a lot of cases, some of them were around, like, building new houses and building schools and, you know, actually like regenerating a community and other areas. It was around but we know we've got a real contaminated site and they could be former landfills, former chemical works. And yet there were houses built next to it. So it was how would you then go about fixing that contamination? So the people that are next door to those sites are not having potentially those human health impacts on themselves and that they can, you know, know that they're living in a place where they're not being impacted potentially by that contamination. Claire [Interviewer] How do you fix those sites? Sarah [Interviewee] A lot of different ways, really. You know, some things are around, like using chemicals and biological ways to eat the contamination, which is in the ground, but other ways you can contain it, through engineering, like putting in a cutoff wall and then, you know, extracting contaminants if you've got it in groundwater. So the kind of aim was always to understand what you could have, investigate, find what you have got, and then design in how you might mitigate it. If you think there is a real risk to humans and the environment. There's been a couple of really interesting projects that I've been involved in over the years, so we've spent a lot of years working for Gateshead Council. That was really interesting and, and kind of helping to investigate sites that they owned in their areas and sites that they were going to develop. And that really helped me gain knowledge working with really brilliant bunch of people at the council, you know- starting as a graduate and learning how to write a desk study and how to do ground investigation- right the way through to when we stopped working with them so much. Just as 2020 Covid happened, I was project managing sites. You know, I kind of pivoted my role and that really helped, having that kind of projects to grow and develop. The current project that I'm really passionate about is Teesworks. So I work and support them to understand how to legally manage materials and soils that they excavate on site. It's not an easy thing to do in the UK - you would have thought that, you know, you dig something out of the ground and you put it back. You wouldn't want to take it off to a landfill, but there's lots of controls and regulations in place to do that. So my role is to support it, get those permissions in place and regulate how we do it, because it kind of links with the contaminated land piece, because you might want to excavate a soil and material and think, well, it's on-site I don't want to take it to landfill, but if you're going to put it back, you want to make sure you’re putting back something that's not going to cause harm to humans or pollution to the environment. And I really enjoy being involved in a project that was kind of really important to my upbringing. Redeveloping a site that my father worked at the steelworks when I grew up, his father, my grandfather, my uncle. You know, I've got lots of generations of steelworkers in my background, so it feels a bit like it's come back around basically. But what I'm doing is helping to regenerate a site. Claire [Interviewer] What positive changes have you seen in environmental science over the years? Sarah [Interviewee] I think it's about to have its day - the environment. And I say that hesitantly, because I do think there's quite a lot of stuff going on with the new Labour government and some of the things they're saying about ‘enabling development on site’, which I totally agree, we need to better enable growth and development, but not at the expense of the environment. You know, we've got to find a good kind of balance. But I feel like when I started my career, the environment was not seen as a positive benefit to a project. It was very much seen as Ah God, do we really need to you? Do you have to be involved? And we were seen as a blocker, you know, especially because you're telling people they’ve either got to do more work or they can't do something. You know, you were never the bearer of good news really. Whereas I think now in the last 20 years, there's been a huge shift in how, especially the members of the public, perceive the environment. And that kind of then factors into these big construction sites. I work in these big rail road schemes where, you know, they want to see that the environment is protected. They want to know that what's being built is being done to best practice, and especially that what they do isn't going to cause any further harm, but actually is better in the environment and better in their lives. So yeah, I think there has been a big shift in that kind of aspect and the perception of the public as well. Claire [Interviewer] Environmentally, what do we need more of? Sarah [Interviewee] I think we need more specialists. I think that's one of the biggest things. Although the environment is going to have its day, I think there's a skill shortage. And when I left uni it was a good time. It was the right time to get into contaminate land and into soils because, as I said, the Environmental Protection Act had come out, and people were driving how those were going to be enacted. But now there's been a little bit of a cooling off on that. Universities have reduced quite a lot of their courses when it comes to the environment, which means we don't always see the kind of graduates coming through. And a lot of that is led by government funding. You know, when I started, there used to be funding given to councils to investigate contaminated land. That funding dried up around 2012. In addition, they stopped giving funding for contaminant land officers in the council as well. So no, councils don't have their own contaminated land officers now to do that role. It's part of that environmental health team, if they have anyone, which means there's no one actively looking at these sites and these big sites. So you need an economic reason to investigate a site that might have a problem. So take Teesworks. You have to have a reason to develop it. You have to put money in to develop it. But if, say, you had a site where it's an open space, bit of land or it's a park or something like that, and it was maybe a former landfill, no one is pushing to say, we need to look at that. And if someone is pushing the answer back is well, who's paying for that? That knowledge of investigating and then having to do something about that contamination, it's all just about protecting the people that live around it and the environment. And that is not seen as a big enough reason to spend money that the councils just don't have. Claire [Interviewer] When you say you think it's kicking off, It's starting, what do you think the future is bringing at the moment? Sarah [Interviewee] I think people understand that having green spaces and having access to the environment, being able to go out and have a walk in on an evening, or go and play in the park, I think there's a shift in what people perceive as they have the right to that. I think in the past, you know, people lived in quite urban areas and it was just like, oh, well, you know, that is something that other people have. I don't have it. I think now people feel they've got a right to it. I think people realize how important it is to their mental wellbeing and actually physical wellbeing as well. You know, we've seen a big shift since Covid of people wanting access to outside spaces. And I think because of it, people are more adverse to losing it with new development and because they're adverse to it. That means that those kind of technical specialists who can support and kind of assess the impacts are going to be more important than ever, because I don't think members of the public are going to just turn around and say, no, no, it's all right, don't worry. You know, build a new road through my nature reserve or, you know, that's not happening now. I've seen a big shift in public opinion and that kind of thing. Claire [Interviewer] What do you think is contributing towards shifting public opinion? Sarah [Interviewee] I think it's a shift on this- physical and mental wellbeing. That people are becoming more conscious about it. And especially, I would say the younger generations. I can see it in the graduates that we take on in our business. You know, they are really interested and conscious about their own mental health, and they want to make sure that they've got a really good work life balance, and there's a real potential to learn from them, you know, from our kind of older generations. And so I think they're driving the shift because they want to see that the environment is protected and they are getting out there more and enjoying it. Claire [Interviewer] Have you seen a shift in female representation in the industry? Sarah [Interviewee] Yeah. Huge shift. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that I'm proud of in the industry. When I started as a graduate at Atkins Realis, who I work for, there was myself, and another 2, 3 technical specialist women in the office and the rest were business support. And it was definitely seen as, what are these women doing in our office? It was very, very male dominated in what was an engineering firm. And so yeah, the shift now I would say especially in the environment field, because a lot of women, I don't know why, but I think we like the thought of making a difference. And so in our business now, in our environment practice we’re about 50/50 men and women, which has been a real shift in 20 years in the industry. And in addition to that, we've got women in management roles. You know, my practice director’s a woman. Her practice director’s a woman. You know, we've got some really brilliant women in those management roles. If you've got a good gender balance in a business, then it drives itself. Claire [Interviewer] What or who enabled that? Sarah [Interviewee] I think it was probably those people like myself that were in, at those early stages.I think there were times where, you know, it was a bit difficult joining a team where you were the only female. You know, I still sit in meetings regularly where I'm the only female in the room and quite regularly you talked over or you’re not listened to, and you've always got to kind of fight harder for yourself. And I think it was that fighting, and still turning up every day, even though some days were a little bit difficult. And I've definitely had things happen on sites and things that I think oh, nowadays would never happen. Like it just would not. And if it did happen, you would ensure that it never happened again. And those people knew what was expected. But we don't get anything like the kind of attitudes I used to get on site by being a female. Claire [Interviewer] What obstacles have you faced in your career? Sarah [Interviewee] I think a lot really [laughs] I think, um, I think being a northern female in a business as well, like I don't hear the accent, but I think when you sit in a room and automatically start talking, there is that like assumption that you are from a working class family. You don't know what you're talking about. And especially, you know, working for a very, especially at the beginning, a very prestigious engineering firm. You know, people came from very good backgrounds and the majority of like the big offices were in London. So, you know, they all had better educations in some ways than myself. So that was always difficult then, you know, on top of that, you had that kind of having to sit in a room as a lone female and really be noticed and, and kind of get your point across. And that still happens today, really. And I think I've had to work harder than a lot of men would have done in the same position. I'm lucky that I have been challenged and I've been supported throughout my career and given things that I've enjoyed and given the opportunities and the progression and the promotions when it was due. But because of that, my career has come first, you know, and it's been hard won, you know, there’ve been sacrifices along the way where, you know, you would have quite happily not worked over on a weekend or not worked during the week or whatever, and had more time off and whatever. But there's been times when, you’ve gone well actually, if I want this and I really want to do what I want to do, then I've got to show up and I've got to do things which others wouldn't. Claire [Interviewer] What qualities do you think you had to develop to deal with that situation? Sarah [Interviewee] I think the biggest one was picking my battles. I think I've always been outspoken. Pretty sure my parents will tell you that, if you ask them, and I've always had opinions, but I think when I first started, it's a new world and, you know, starting in a work environment and you see things happening and you get annoyed and you get frustrated and I think had to shift to learn that some battles are not worth fighting and understand which ones are worth fighting, because if you do that, then when you do fight a battle or you do need to make change, or you do need to stand up for yourself, people then listen because you think, oh, well, actually she doesn't do this all the time. There must be something in this that we need to stop and we need to think and we need to do. And I think that once I understood that side of things and I guess played the political part a bit better, then yeah, that made a really big difference. Being able as part of that as well, to put a good, reasonable argument together because, you know, I am passionate, but sometimes you've got to take a step back and think, you've got to leave the emotion at the door. You've got to put your argument in. And sometimes you really want to scream and shout and say, this isn't right, but actually you've got to say, no, I've got to be calm and I've got to put myself forward and explain, because then people are more likely to listen. And I think once I understood that, things became a little bit easier. I'm not saying do it all the time [laughs] but in the majority Claire [Interviewer] What environmental challenges do we face going forwards? Sarah [Interviewee] I'm going to answer that as a soils person. I think the challenge we have in the industry is - soils are a finite resource. They're not seen as that, you know, oil and gas and things like that are seen as once you've used them, re-use them. But actually it takes hundreds of years to produce a little bit of soil because soils are produced by weathering of rock and organic segregation and things like that. But the processes to produce a soil are significant, and soil is very variable as well. So different processes produce different types of soils. And we need different types of soils for growing different types of food. And also to stop flooding. Then engineering needs to build your building. And so we need to start thinking of soil as this: if we use it, and we keep digging it out and putting it in a landfill, we can't just suddenly go along and actually produce a new bit of soil and put it in its place. We've got to think about how do we reuse it and it's also it's not as easy as you think because as I touched on earlier, the regulation in the UK, if you dig a soil out of the ground, it becomes a waste and then you start having to manage it under waste regulations, which is complex. Takes time to get a permit in place and then you’re managing is quite difficult on-site. So that's really difficult. But I mean that's where I come in, and that's why, you know, provide advice to clients and how they do that. But then in addition, you have things like your landscape architects, you have your ecologists, and we're all wanting a certain type of soil on site because they want to be able to grow species rich grassland, for instance, because that's where, you know, the more species rich, the more better the ecology, the better that it is. And that requires a certain type of soil. And sometimes you might not have that soil on your site. So there has been instances where the soil on site that you're digging up and you want to pop back because you want to keep it, don't want to take it to landfill, actually isn't suitable for the design and the benefits that they want to get from the ecology side and the landscaping on site. So I think that is quite difficult as well. You've got to listen to a lot of different people and a lot of different designers who all want different things, out of a scheme to manage the environment. Claire [Interviewer] How might we meet those challenges better? Sarah [Interviewee] I think that a collaborative working, you know, a better understanding of what everyone wants, a lot of different specialists need to get the most out of below ground on a construction site. Your geotechnical engineers want a material that's going to be able to found on, that your house isn't going to fall down. Your flood specialists want a good material to make sure that you know your flooding risk is mitigated as much as possible. Your drainage engineer, it's one tip for your suds in your drainage to make sure that your water goes where it needs to be. Then you've got your ecologists who want a really biodiverse ecology species rich grassland, woodland, whatever. And we all want the same things. Fundamentally, what I want is it not to go off to landfill and to be kept on site and returned, in addition to it not being a risk to humans and the environment. But the challenge is how do you work together to get the best? How do you find that compromise? Because no one is going to get exactly what they want out of whatever's under the ground but for sustainability and to drive carbon reduction, we need to find a way where we reuse soils as much as possible on site. We don't take it to landfill because also, you know, you've got the impact of your transport on carbon. No one wants to use lorries, drive through urban areas, you know, it's all those kind of things. So we've got to start thinking holistically. So one of the things we do as a team is producing a soils and materials strategy. So we start really at the start of a project thinking - what soils, how do we need them, how we’re going to use them and how we can do it legally, and kind of set up that framework that then raises the awareness to a project team that soils are important and then facilitates and grows those kind of conversations within the project teams at an early stage. Claire Raftery [Interviewer] What excites you about the future? Sarah Bullock [Interviewee] It excites me that carbon reduction is being talked about a lot more, and people are starting to say, we need to consider reduction in carbon as part of our project design, and it's pivotal to where we need to be as a country and as a world going forward. I think there is a lot to be done. You know, people like me need to link carbon and soils together, because at the moment, you know, we're on the start of that journey. But when I think about where we were ten years ago, where carbon really wasn't talked about and net zero wasn't talked about - thinking, well, where where will we be in another ten years? That's really exciting. And the other thing is around female representation, really, and in general, even, you know, minority representations in whatever that kind of brings, I feel, like, really excited about having teams that are diverse. And when I see where we were 20 years ago, at the start of my career and where we are now in that representation in the construction and engineering industries and in the environment, and the teams that I work in. Yeah, that, that really excites me too, because I think, well, we've got a long way to go, but we're making progress in what I can see. Claire Raftery [Interviewer] It's fair to say there are some fairly high profile climate change deniers in the world at this point. And you’re an expert in soils. What would you say to climate change deniers? Sarah Bullock [Interviewee] [laughs] I laugh because I think, you know, I've grown up with climate change. You know, I'm in my 40s, early 40s now, but, like we were being told about climate change in primary school, you know this isn't something new. And the models that we're showing in the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and its impact on global warming. And that is such a fundamental, basic analogy, really, when it comes to climate change. It's a lot more complex than that. But I don't think it can deny the two. I think if someone is so ingrained in not believing it, you can't change them. And I don't think that it's around them not believing that it's a thing. I think it's they don't want to because they would have to change the way that they act. They would have to change the way that a country acts. And sometimes hard choices have to be made. That sometimes means less money. And that's what it comes down to. People don't want the inconvenience if it's around, oh, I can't use my car enough, I should use public transport or I've got to do a bit of recycling. Now I just rather put it in the bin. But then also, if it comes down to I have to spend a bit more money to get an environmental specialist involved, or I'm not going to get as big a return on this investment, then yeah, I think it's around. I really don't want to believe it. So I'm not going to give it the credence it deserves. Claire [Interviewer] Who has supported you on your journey? Sarah [Interviewee] I've been really lucky to have some amazing supporters. So I mean, fundamentally my parents and my sister have always been really supportive. I think, especially my dad, because obviously he's the first kind of male role model you know, a daughter has and he never, ever said to me, you can't do that. Yeah, he never said, I think that's beyond you or you shouldn't do that. So I think the word "can't" never really sits in my vocabulary. If I want something bad enough. I find a way. Yes, it's hard sometimes. It could be a bit impossible, but if you really want something, you find a way around it. And I think because I didn't hear that as a young person, I heard a bit more when I got to school, you know, your kind of lecturers and you teachers, especially if a school like Rye Hills, you know, you sit in career conversations and like, oh, you're not smart enough to be a doctor or a scientist or whatever, but I never heard it at home. And if I didn't understand something, he'd spend hours helping me with the homework and things like that. And then, like, later on when I started my career, I've had some really brilliant colleagues, female and male, who’ve supported me along the way. Quite a few of them are actually really close friends now, I think we kind of grow together. And I said that I've always had people like supporting me, advocating for me when I needed it. And, like, a couple of years ago, I was nominated by a colleague who actually was pivotal to me, starting my career and getting my first job. She nominated me for Cranfield Technical Lead of the Year, and that was something I never thought I would ever be nominated for, but it was lovely to see what people thought of me and kind of thought that I was good enough to be seen as that kind of leader in the industry and what I bring to the business. Claire [Interviewer] Who are your trailblazers? Sarah [Interviewee] Definitely those people that I have hinted at in the business. Yeah, they're definitely up there in pushing me every day, and supporting me. My sister is a really big trailblazer. She's not environmentally interested in the same way I am, but she, she always does what she wants. Yeah, just is happy in her own skin, insofar as that she isn't swayed by others. But it's never, ever malicious or anything, you know, like she, she kind of is kind, happy. And I think that's having that kind of stabilizing people in your life, that kind of support you as you go through. Yeah. Brings you back down to earth as well. Keeps you on the steady keel. She's not career ambitious in the same way I am at all. What I admire about her is that she doesn't worry about what other people think. I sometimes do, you know, and I have that kind of imposter syndrome quite a lot of the time. And I have anxieties around like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh, what's that person think? Or did I come across well enough in a meeting whereas she's like, well, if they don't like me, they don't like me. And I'm an authentic self. And so, you know, I'm pretty certain she does worry about what people say, what people think. But, you know, fundamentally, she lives her life the way she wants to live it. Claire [Interviewer] When you say that you made sacrifices for your career, have those sacrifices been worth it? Sarah [Interviewee] Um…Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not married, I don't have kids. And I think that's probably been the biggest sacrifice in a way. But I, I don't regret it because I've got a very fulfilled life. I enjoy my life, my career has given me loads of exciting opportunities, and I was never interested in kids. [laughs] So. So actually, yeah, it's never been something that I've gone oh, I really wanted to start a family or whatever. So yeah, I have no regrets. And you know, when I give myself a chance to step back and think about, well, how did I progress from a graduate to a technical director in my early 40s, 20 years career - I think actually, you know, I’ve done a lot. And, yeah, can be proud of myself. Claire [Interviewer] Yeah. I'm interested that when you were at school, you felt like you didn't achieve. And I'd like to ask you what qualities that you had to develop to do so much with your career? Sarah [Interviewee] I think you need to understand yourself. I think that's one of the biggest things and work with your strengths. So I work a lot by gut instinct, so sometimes I know the right course of action or sometimes something doesn't feel quite right and I use that a lot. And at the beginning of my career, I didn't really understand that. I didn't understand where that was coming from. It's just if someone gave me an opportunity, I'd be like, yeah, definitely want to do that. Or sometimes like that. That doesn't feel quite right. And I just go with that. But in the majority I would, if an opportunity came, and it felt right, I would take it. So I think as I've gotten further through my career, I listen to that gut instinct more, because it's that kind of inner self, inner voice that's going, you know, I'm going to take everything around you, all the things that are not being said, all the things are being said, and I'm going to post them really quickly in your brand, and I'm going to give you a feeling as to whether that's right or not. So that was yeah, really kind of pivotal. Yeah. Claire [Interviewer] How has your relationship with local landscapes changed? Sarah [Interviewee] I don't know, I think I get quite emotional sometimes when I stand on the beach at Redcar and I look at Teesworks and I think back to what it looked like four years ago, you see the blast furnace, you'd see all those kind of those things on the landscape that's been there for years and they're not there now. And there's a sadness to that, because there's history and there's people whose lives fully entwined with that site. But on the other hand, I think there's hope because they're not there now. You know, the site, it could have stayed as it was. A lot of sites around the country have done. So that and then the fact that, you know, I've worked on the project and everything that I've learned in 20 years has driven and enabled in part that site to be developed. And that really makes me proud that, from a family point of view, had generations work in that site, I did a bit of a shift in - I'm not going to follow that route, I'm going to go down the environment route, which quite a lot of people told my mother that she was mad for letting me go and do an environmental degree at university, that I'd never, I'd never get a job in it, never make any money off it. But for me, it was around doing something that I enjoyed and I loved. But now, 20 years later, I'm able to use that skills and knowledge to make a difference on that site in other sites. And I think that's what makes me proud. Claire [Interviewer] On that site there's been controversies. How do you cope with that, or is there anything you want to say about that? Sarah [Interviewee] I think what I would say is that there's a lot of very knowledgeable, experienced individuals and companies on that site, and the controversy is around, you know, you don't know what you're doing and, you know, there's lots of political stuff going on. But fundamentally, there's a lot of amazing people working there, whose main aim is to redevelop a site for the Teesworks community, bring in jobs, ensure that a site that was derelict becomes usable again, but is also done legally and to the betterment of the environment, with no harm to humans in the surrounding area. So I think people need to think about, like, who is it that they've got there? You know, we’re doing amazing jobs. And if you think about where it was five years ago to where it is now, you know, I know how hard people work to drive that on site. And I'm very proud of the team and the people that I work with. Claire [Interviewer] What small action could each of us take to preserve the environment, or to be more aware of our actions and their impact on the earth? Sarah [Interviewee] I think soil is for individuals is probably a little bit more difficult. You know, it becomes a really big topic when you've got big sites. But one of the things that I really like to do as a soils expert is around what compost I buy. So [laughs] I really try to buy peat-free compost because it's not always the best compost, you know, you look at it sometimes as a soil expert, you think it's too much wood and stone and all sorts in this, but I can't bring myself to buy a peat compost because, you know, peat is definitely a finite resource. It is pivotal to like peat bogs and the species that are there and it doesn't regenerate. I mean, peat comes from years and years of forest that have died and been compressed. So once it's gone, it's gone and you lose a complete ecosystem. And there's some really interesting legislation now that's coming in, and especially in places like Scotland and Ireland, like, they’re really driving to protect their peat bogs. But if we can stop buying peat compost, then there wouldn't be a market for it anywhere and they would have to improve the quality of what is there. Claire [Interviewer] So we're coming to the end of this interview. Thank you so much for sharing your trailblazing story. Lastly, is there anything else you'd like to add? Sarah [Interviewee] Um, well, I was surprised to have been invited because I'd thought like [laughs] the word trailblazer’s used, like, I don't always see myself as that person.So it was lovely to be asked. OUTRO: Thank you for listening to Periplum’s Trailblazers Podcasts funded by the National Lottery Heritage Fund. To listen to more of the series, and follow our projects visit our website at periplumheritage.com