Episode 14: Linda Dooks, Published Writer

INTRO: Welcome to the Trailblazers Podcast series by Periplum, sharing the experiences of trailblazers living and working in the Tees Valley: the innovators, activists, workers and adventurers as told in their own words. Episode 14 Linda Dooks, Published Writer Lynne (Interviewer) So we, I’m here on a lovely sunny spring afternoon in Billingham in the Tees Valley with author Linda Dooks. So…can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and what your childhood was like? Linda (Interviewee) Well firstly, thank you for inviting me. I actually, I was born in Canada, and as a child, my parents came over here and sadly I lost my family as a child and I was adopted, which in those days never quite sort of went down very well with a lot of people. But anyway, that's another story. And um…my new parents adopted me and we lived at Doncaster Bessacarr and the bungalow backed onto the Doncaster Racecourse. And our garden was where the finishing line was. So I used to sit as a child on the hedge and cheer the horses on, as they were, we had great fun. But anyway, my father actually was a master printer, although we owned the farms as well, my father was a master printer and we moved to Malton, in North Yorkshire, and my father took over Browns Printing Works and I went to St. Andrew's School, which was a school for us young ladies, hmm, don't know what happened but anyway! [laughs] And from a very early age, I've always loved books. I've always loved reading. But my parents, being in the farming community: you got up early during the summer and you worked all day till dusk, sort of thing. And if my mother caught me with a book in my hand, which was difficult in our house, because we really didn't have books, but I managed to get 1 or 2 [books] But if she found me with a book in my hand, it was: ‘I can give you work to do, dear. Don’t be lazy, come along. Much better things to do than reading, you know reading is for the idle!’ Oh okay. Yep. So as a child, I grew up with great difficulty having to read, but I…it was something I enjoyed, and I was always pulled to the books. So, in the morning, for the early morning, I used to get up early and take the dogs for a walk, and we used to go down to the copse, which was, you know, a ground at the time, and we had a huge oak tree down there. It was beautiful. And I wonder to this day if it's still there, you know, it was a beautiful old thing, but it had a huge, long hole in it. And so I sneaked out a little notebook and a little pencil, and I hid it in this knarl in the tree. And I would take the dogs, and, er I would sit under the oak tree, and I'd take this little notebook out and just look around me and just write what I saw. And I also took er an Enid Blyton book down, but unfortunately can't quite remember the name of it but I took it down. It was one of her smaller ones, and I put that into the tree, you know, which was fine, but occasionally you'd get there and, of course there were bugs and all sorts walking over in the Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) a squirrel would pop its head out, you know, and that sort of thing, you had to talk to…. I won't tell you what state they were in when I took them out Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) But I would spend many a happy time down there. The only problem was, of course, I got lost with time. So when I got back home, my mum used to: ‘How long does it take you to walk these dratted dogs, dear?’ ‘Oh, I've been down to the river and back, mum, that's one hell of one’s nose in’ And then, of course, time took over and I left and went to work at um Ryedale Council for many years. And then…you know, married life comes in and children arrive. And it was when we were at Bilsdale that the Helmsley Art Centre suddenly started a writer’s group there. And I said to my husband: ‘I'd love to go to..’ ‘Well you go dear if you want to go’ I said: ‘oh you don't mind, something like that’ Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) ‘You want to go, you go.’ And it was really going there that got me back into writing again and made me realise that actually, this is fun and I…I think I can do it. So I started to write short stories of umm…Emma and Richard, my two children, living on the North York Moors and having adventures on the North York Moors Railway, and those stories are still in my box of never been printed. Maybe one day I might try and get them published, but at the moment… Lynne (Interviewer) So can I just go back a little bit, Linda. I'm just wondering because obviously at home you were encouraged to work on the farm…and... Linda (Interviewee) Yes. Lynne (Interviewer) You had to hide your books. What was school like? Linda (Interviewee) School was difficult in so much as other children would take books home from the library, but I couldn't and I had a friend that used to hide… If I brought a book home, I would give it to her and she would leave it in her house. So if we went back there for, for tea or something like that, we got time to spend with books. So my friends understood, as well, that my parents didn't believe in wasting time of reading. And maybe it made me a little slower, perhaps to…read and pick up words and learn the English because the school, it wasn't your typical…county modern school, your typical everyday school. It was a school for young ladies, you know, and you were brought up to decorum and that sort of thing. You know, I can remember walking round the room, you know, with a book on my head and a glass on the top of the book Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) with water in, you know, Lynne (Interviewer) [exhales] Linda (Interviewee) ‘Do not spill the water dear!’ y’know and all this sort of thing. We didn't do exams…they didn't err…they just didn't…exist for some reason. We weren't there for that sort of thing. So school - it was a little odd for me. It's like, my husband says today, I have no idea what schools are like because you never went to a proper school. Lynne (Interviewer) So… when you left school, did you have any qualifications? Linda (Interviewee) No, I had no qualifications, no. Lynne (Interviewer) And was that because of the time… or the school or…. Linda (Interviewee) I think really it was the school. If you were a little slow, you weren't helped in those days, you were just part of the group and… you just mingled. And if you didn't quite pick something up very well, well, tough - you got on with it. And as an example, I hated science. I hated going into the little science... And it was actually a barn that was at the bottom of the garden of the school. [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) And we had the mad professor in his white cum grey overall, and his typical grey hair that stuck out everywhere. And he was forever blowing the corrugated roof off. The doors would fly open! Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) There you go.Gosh, gosh. Well, that was fun, wasn't it? Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) And we'd all come out of this… [laughs] And one day we were there and I just wasn't in the mood for this at all. And he said to me: ‘What's the problem?’ And I said: ‘Well, I hate science, sir, that's what's the problem.’ He said: ‘And what is it you would like to do instead?’ I said: ‘Well, I wouldn't mind doing double history.’ ‘Oh, off you go dear and don't cross my door again’. So that was the extent of my science and maths, maths was never a great favourite of mine. You know, when they real off numbers to you and then they go: ‘and what's the next number?’ Well if they said 31 I’d go 32. Well it was, wasn't it, you know, but they were obviously looking for something different. So… but I survived. I managed. I’ve got into my 70s and I haven't done anything drastic, but at least I hope I haven't. Lynne (Interviewer) So when you left school, did you go straight into employment from school? Linda (Interviewee) Oh yes you did then. Yes, very much so. Well I say yes…I went to one St. John’s but just for a term. And that was really just to learn shorthand and typing. The typing was fine. The shorthand well listen, dear, I mean, you know, I mean talk about dots, dashes and yeah, I mean, there's nothing in it, you know, and so yes. Really. Okay, fine. And they realized that this was not going into my thick brain, but I did get the qualification for my typing, I, I was quite a good, quick typist in those days. I'm a little slower today, maybe not quite so touch typing today. I like to look at the keys, I cheat. But back then, yes, I could do it, but it wasn't what I wanted. But you were…this is it. You know? I mean, I'm I’m talking ‘bout the early 70s and this is, this is what young ladies did, even back then…you know, and I actually went with my friend Jane, who became a nurse, and I went with her once, and we went to Scarborough Hospital and they were doing like um, like a student’s day She said, would I go with her to keep her company? Which I did, and it was ever so interesting. And they were giving out where you could work and where you could start. We were known as Primroses, which I thought was lovely, and we had these little yellow uniforms back then. They were ever so sweet…primroses… And… Jane, I forget now, but anyway, she took up the nursing and we got the way through and I'm just quietly sat there and I thought…hmm maybe I should have put me hand up for nursing. Maybe I could get away from doing typing, sat in an office all day. And then she said, well, there's only one thing left. And she… I know none of you will want to do it, but she said, it's down in…the autopsy. And I went, ‘oh, yes, I'll do that!’ [laughs] I mean, God. Oh, I've just stuck me hand up what have I done?! So I went and I did nearly a year there as a trainee and my first morning that I arrived, you would laugh, it was quite funny. I got myself down there all excited, and err I had to change into these rather sort of dull overall things with a little, there were little brown boots, actually. Maybe it was to hide the colour of…you know. Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) But anyway and I made my way through, I could hear this music playing, and I passed the bodies on the trolleys, still didn’t call me I thought oo I bet they’re interesting I wonder what they died of…I’ve a weird sense of… Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) And we passed them and I could hear this music. And as I turned the corner, there was the pathologist leaning back in his chair, feet upon his desk, sandwich half eaten, his radio playing and a mug of tea. Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) ‘Oh, blimey’ he says, ‘they've sent me a blooming junior’ he says. ‘Right… your best have a sandwich then, then a cuppa tea before we start. And if you're going to faint, faint backwards, not forwards’ Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) So that was my introduction. No wonder I write what I do. Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) He introduced me to the first autopsy. I was just fascinated. The thought of well, I think I'm going to faint, just went out me head because I was absolutely fascinated - the fact how things worked, you know, and he said: ‘Oh, you'll do well here. You'll be all right.’ I mean, I hadn't got the brains to become a pathologist, obviously, but I could have become an assistant and, and help prepare and all that sort of thing. And I did it for about the first six months, and then I went home for the weekend because we stayed there, we had the, like the quarters for the staff then we stayed there, and I went home on the Saturday morning, only for my mother to tell me that she'd already rungthe hospital and told them I wouldn't be returning on Monday, and she got me a job at the solicitor's office. And that was how life was, because she was horrified that I was working down in pathology. She thought that was dreadful. And, you know, what will the neighbours think? You stupid girl. And I said but I don't want to go into a solicitors.. You're going because she said I've had a word with the solicitors and… They’d very kindly like to take you. So… I changed, I ended up doing a job that I never wanted to do but I suppose back then some have maybe got more guts and have gone, well, tough, I’m going. But, you know, when you're brought up very strict, you tend to fall into line, wrongly but you do. And…I ended up, you know, becoming a secretary, and it was okay, it saw me past. And then eventually I got, I went for an interview at Ryedale District Council while they were still on Welham Road at Norton. Lynne (Interviewer) Hm mmm Linda (Interviewee) And I got a job there. And so from there on I was with them to well into the ‘80s, yeh. Lynne (Interviewer) And so how did you meet your husband? Because you talked about being married and your children… Lynne (Interviewer) Yeah. [laughs] Now, that is a funny story. I worked for the elderly at Ryedale Council and in the repair section, the housing repair section, that sort of thing. And it was a very cold December or January morning, and reception rang up and said: ‘We've got a gentleman down here and he wants to see just you, Linda.’ So I said, ooo gosh I’m famous, you know, and I've popped myself down and, bless him, he was sat there… What on earth are you doing here out in this weather? He said: ‘I've got no gas.’ He says ‘I'm cold.’ He says ‘it's warmer in here’ he said ‘I’ve no central heating’ Anyway, I got him back into the car and I got him back home and I said: ‘whatever you do, don't leave the house.’ Well he was in a bungalow. Actually, I said, ‘don't leave the bungalow.’ I said, ‘I'm going straight back and I'll call the gas and get them to come out straight away’. Which is what I did. And I spoke to this gentleman on the phone. I explained what had happened and he said ‘oh, I'll get a workman out for you.’ And about an hour later, my old gentleman was back at Ryedale counselling. I said: ‘I told you to take...’ ‘Hey lass’ he says: ‘back up in here’ he says,’ ‘I'm lovely and warm’ I said: ‘Well, what are you doing here?’ He said ‘Well, I had to come and say ta, love, you know.’ He said: ‘Brilliant’ He says ‘Lovely’. I said: ‘Come on, I'll run you back home.’ ‘Ay, I thought you would, lass.’ He says: ‘I’ll put kettle on before you leave’ Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) So I sat and had a cup of tea when, yes it was working fine, and when I got back I rang the local gas board at 1 [pm] and the same gentleman answered the phone and I said: ‘Oh, it's Linda here.’ I said: ‘I've just rung to say many thanks’ I said, ‘for going’ I said: ‘he's warm, it's wonderful.’ I'm ever so grateful you sent someone out so quickly. So we chatted a little bit more and then he said: ‘um, I go to the Green Man [pub] he said on a Wednesday. Wednesday’ he said: ‘we go for a liquid lunch on a Wednesday’ he says: ‘Why don't you come along and join us tomorrow? And I thought ooo you’re a fast one. So I said, well, I'm a bit busy. I said, I'll see how I go. Needless to say, a couple of weeks had gone by and I still hadn’t gone, and then he rang me. And he said, ‘er you still hadn't come for this liquid lunch?’ So I said: ‘Well, I'm at Pickering this morning. But’ I said ‘I will try and get back.’ ‘Well do.’ he said, ‘You know, what sandwich would you like?’ So we got the sandwich organized and the drink. I said: ‘Well, I'll have a cup of tea with it if you don't mind, ‘cos I don't really drink alcohol.’ ‘Yeh, yeh, that's fine’ he says. Well, needless to say, I did get back, but I didn't rush and I only had about half an hour to see him…my poor husband, Peter, of course, was sat patiently waiting, but in between times of that, our gentleman, Eric, bless him. But he worked at the housing department, and I happened to mention to him that I was going for this lunch with Peter, and he said: ‘oh’ he said: ‘Well you do know he's married with six kids don’t you?’ Lynne (Interviewer) [exhales] Linda (Interviewee) I thought, right I’ll have you mate, when I get there. So I got in and he said: ‘you haven't got long’ I said: ‘I know I'm sorry’ I said ‘I’m...a bit busy.’ So I rush this sandwich through and the drink. And I thanked him for getting it. He said, ‘um, would you like to go out for a drink on Friday night?’ I said: ‘Well, actually, I said, I'm not in the habit of going out with married men with six children.’ Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) Well, you know when there’s a sudden silence… And you think have I just put both feet in it here? Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) I thought he doesn't like it because I found out, you see. And then he looked at me in a very quiet voice he said: ‘Well, I wasn't married when I got up this morning. [laughs] Bless him. Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) Needless to say that is…44 years later Lynne (Interviewer) Wow Linda (Interviewee) And here we are. Lynne (Interviewer) Yes Linda (Interviewee) Yes. So yes, got back to the office and there's Eric dashing out through the back door as I'm trying to grab him [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) You made me look a right fool. [laughs] And they knew. They thought it was hilarious. Lynne (Interviewer) Yeah Linda (Interviewee) Yes, I know, so that's how I met hubby, which is an unusual way of meeting somebody isn’t it? Because sometimes you meet them at dancefloors, or you meet them in the bar and folks and all that sort of thing.But I met him over the phone. Lynne (Interviewer) Well you started to talk about how you got back into writing. So had your children grown up at this point? Linda (Interviewee) No, they were still at school, but they have special needs. So, Emma and Richard went to Woodlands School at Scarborough, so that gave me the day. And it was a Wednesday morning at the Helmsley Arts Centre. So I went there, very nervous and very…and I listened to the stories being run and I thought, oh no, no I’m not this good, you know, and, similar to Joan, the lady gave us prompts and I don't know why I just came home and over the next fortnight I just wrote this short story and I went back and I nervously read this out and went, ooo, that’s good. Yes, brilliant, well done. What- they liked it, but it gave me encouragement. They were very good and they, all of them encouraged me, but, um, we were all actually more or less the same age. We're all sort of in our 30s and early 40s. We were all around the same age group. Well, I suppose we are now at the one I started, but we, yes, we were all, so we, it was nice. We all stopped afterwards and had a drink and got together afterwards. So it was. Yes. But it made me realize that, actually, I have got a few brains up there, and I can write a few short stories, you know, and they, and they've enjoyed it. So yes, it did kickstart me into, into writing again. Yes. Lynne (Interviewer) Yes and so how did you get from…cos you were still in North Yorkshire at this point. How did you get up to Billingham from there? Linda (Interviewee) Well, um… the children, get it, by this time they were due to leave school, which was going to Askham Bryan and because he was very much into gardening and that sort of thing. And so he wanted to go to Askham Bryan there because they had a course there for those with disabilities. But Emma had had the opportunity to go around the hospitals, so she decided that…I love the hospitals, mum. Well, being at Bilsdale, of course, the farmhouse itself was a mile from the main road. There were no buses. I mean, you were lucky if you got a bus once an hour in Helmsley, and that only went from A to B, short distances, you know [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) Mmm mmm Linda (Interviewee) And once a week to York and you’d had it, that sort of thing So…we had to put our heads together and think very seriously, because the children were getting older and to be able to I mean, their school runs were an hour in a bit both ways. So they used to leave home at half seven in the morning, and they were getting on for five before they were back. You know, so it was a long day for them, although, bless them, they never seemed to notice any. It never bothered them. You know, they had their own little phones. They used to…’I'm coming home, mum. I've just got here, mum.’ Bless them. So I knew they were safe, you know. But we had two lovely taxi drivers that looked after them. But we realised that we needed to go back into civilisation as we call… because we did live in the middle of nowhere. It was lovely and it suited us lovely. But, unless you can drive, which I could then, but of course the children couldn't. Even us go, they would never be able to drive. So you were reliant on these special taxis to take them. But then it was fitting in with the times, of course. And one going one way and one going another. Well, it just wasn't going to work. And we came to Ingleby Barwick and we were very lucky. We got a bungalow there and so we managed to get there. And in between that, Emma was, or is a member of the visual society, the Stockton Visual Society. And David, as he was called then, he's moved on now, but he asked Emma if she would like to go to Radio Stitch at North Tees Hospital. And so he took her down. She was to. Oh, she went to Middlesbrough College. Oh, that was it. Of course. Emma wanted to go to Middlesbrough College, so we had to go somewhere nearer. So she went to, and from Middlesbrough College, David from the Stockton Visual Society took her down to the Radio room and we all went to have a little look. Well her eyes just sparkled and I thought, ooo [laughs] this seems to be interesting is she. Isn’t that lovely. I'd love to do that. Yes, they say she's been there ten years now, bless her. And she, she, last year she got her badge for five, over five years service. So she'll get another one again soon, because she's been there ten years now. Lynne (Interviewer) Wow Linda (Interviewee) So she went off. And of course they used to do it live, her radio programs live. In the meantime, Richard, of course. Was it, with his gardening. And then he went to and I can't remember the name of it in Stockton, but it's a garden centre there. And so he was with them for five years, but he'd had enough after five years. And it was one particular winter, and he came home and he was frozen, he said, tired now, mum I don't want to do any more. And Richard now does volunteer work at James Cook Hospital. And he goes round with Pat, who's lovely lady, and she looks after him and, um, he goes and works at. Does volunteer works at James Cook. So we needed to come back into civilization to be able to get from A to B. Yeah. [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) And how was that transition from living in the middle of nowhere to living in a busy town on..? Linda (Interviewee) Oh I found that difficult because I am a country girl. I'm very much a country girl. And I said, we must have a garden. And we had a lovely garden at the bungalow. Unfortunately, when we took the bungalow on, they assured us that it was full time and it would never be sold. And then of course, the government made changes to certain things. We were there ten years and they decided that they were going to sell the bungalow and we had about two months' notice. Well it's not, yes. And this was two weeks to the Christmas and we were horrified. And to me it was a very stressful time because- what are we going to do with two children? We’re both retired. How does that work, you know? And we had to go to the council for help. And they were extremely kind and they treated us really well. And we got this house here in Billingham. Yes. So we've been here, it must be three years now. Yes. So we've had our ups and downs but we survived it. [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] So let's move on. Because in all this time, with all these upheavals and everything, were you still carrying on writing? Linda (Interviewee) Yes, it was my escape, if that makes sense. At the time I had a bit of time, but my husband was very encouraging. You want to write, love, you write. Why shouldn't you write? But it's a strange thing, and I want people to realize that when you brought up very strictly and you brought up that you're not allowed to read and write. When you start again.. Mother was on my shoulder and I kept hearing this: ‘Haven’t you got anything better, better to do?’ It's a strange sensation and it takes a while to get over it. It takes a while, yes, because I still felt the… but maybe I ought to be doing something. I’ll go round and get some dusting done. I’ll run the vacuum. Well, you’re alright, you know, [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) So you carried on and then you joined another writing group in Stockton, didn't you, when you moved up here? Linda (Interviewee) Yes Lynne (Interviewer) And how long were you there and where did the inspiration come from for your first book? Linda (Interviewee) Well, I think ‘cos of course it was the Stockton Scribblers, as they were known, as they are known. I think I was with them about five years and I'm sure Joan Opie won't mind me mentioning her name, but she's the lady that takes us, and still does. And she gave us prompts. We used to go once a fortnight and she gave us prompts, and the novel came about because of Covid. Of all the times that it happened. But we went onto zoom, because obviously we couldn't go in, and we went onto zoom and she gave us prompts again, and one of these particular prompts was something to do with the Moors or something like that, and I don't know why I just sat down and I visualized Rose living on the North York Moors. And maybe…there's a little bit of me at the beginning, because life wasn't easy as a child. It wasn't. I've survived it. But yes, it was harder. It was hard as a child. We worked long hours, you know, whereas today they would be horrified. But we had the six eight week school holiday and you worked solidly through those holidays, you know, the hay and to get in and there was potato picking, you name it, we had to do it, which was fine. We thought nothing of it. But when you look back, there were very long hours, but we were expected to do it. So I think, yes, if I'm honest, maybe a little bit of me was this Rose escaping the farm. Going back a little, my father died in [19]71. He had chronic diabetes. And of course it wasn't very treatable back in those days. And we lost him in [19]71. So I, later with my mother, and I always remember when, just before my father died, he, I’ll always remember, he said to me, when I go lass, you pack your bag and you leave home. So I think that gives you an idea as to what maybe life was like. But that is very easier said than done, when you have a very dominant mother, you become very under their thumb, I suppose is the word. You become almost afraid to do something out of the ordinary. So I stayed. I stayed at home. Urh... Yes, all my friends have moved on and some had married and others have moved on to different countries. And when the 10 Pound Poms came out, you know, I thought, do I do that? Am I brave? But, no I wasn't brave, you know? But then I wouldn't have met Peter, bless him. Lynne (Interviewer) So did you keep the farm on after your dad died? Linda (Interviewee) No. Oh, no, um..by the time my father died, all the farms and that had been sold off Lynne (Interviewer) [Exhales] Linda (Interviewee) And er course, it was sold off to builders. And what was our paddock was full of bungalows. And, you know the old saying? I woke up one morning and looked out the window and there's a T-junction there. And that's all known as Castle Howard and Castle Howard Road and Castle Drive, Pippin and all those sorts of, those now. And it's just a huge housing estate now, Lynne (Interviewer) Yeh Linda (Interviewee) Yes, of course, all that disappeared. And of course, Giles that had the farm, the top farm. He sold up, of course. Gone now, bless him. But he sold up, you know, but it was a shock to us because we didn't even know where the key was, to the door, cos as children, and being farmers, you never locked up your house. You go out for the day and Giles would have come down and he’d leave eggs and butter and what have you on the kitchen table and, and you know he'd made himself a cup of tea while he was there because his mug in the bowl. Well, I never thought anything of it. You know, Charles has been. You know, but you trusted each other in those days. And I still have that problem after all these years. Peter will say to me: ‘lock the door dear’. Yes, lock the door.. Lynne (Interviewer) So, I can see you, right, I can see the inspiration from Rose, is you wanting to escape that harsh life. Linda (Interviewee) Yes. Yes. Lynne (Interviewer) So you started to write this, what I presume is a short story about Rose? Linda (Interviewee) Oh, yes. But going back, we were given this prompt, and I wrote this short story about Rose. Her mother had died and her father was a brute. And her brother made unwanted advances towards her, and she was determined that she couldn't stay on, she had to escape. So I talked to, turned it around a bit and I…and I got a, that she managed to get the milk train, as it was called in those days. And that got her to York, and then the train to Liverpool. And it was there that she got the boat to New York, and her father was illiterate. And the brother was illiterate, so he didn't quite know what her mother had done with the money. So the money that he'd given her, she would squirrel some away, you know, and she told Rose on her deathbed that the money is behind the break. You take that and you run. And that sounded a little familiar, but I made Rose do it, and she literally got the money, um, she simply put extra clothes on, and she left in what she stood up in. There was no suitcase or anything like that. She just put extra layers of clothes on because she hadn't got a lot, and she'd climbed through the pantry window because the back door creaked as she opened it. And although she’d oiled it, it's still creaked. So she opened the pantry door and she escaped through there. And a friend at the time, her grandfather, took her to catch the milk train and got her away. Yes. And she got onto the boat. And the story finishes where the boat sailing out of Liverpool, and she's looking back at England and she's thinking to herself, shall I ever see home again? And I went ‘the end!’ and there was a moment's silence and I thought, maybe they didn’t like that and they all went: ‘don't stop there. We must know what happens. Oh, don't leave it there’ and I went: ‘Oh! Do you want me to write another chapter then?’ Oh, yes. And Joe went: ‘I think there's a novel there Linda.’ And I thought you've got no chance. And so every fortnight I would write a chapter. But then I realized I couldn't just write a chapter. I had to do research. And it's amazing what you learn through research isn't just and what you find out. And that's what brought me to Ellis Island. And I do vaguely remember Ellis Island in the history lessons. I thought I’ve heard about Ellis Island. So I decided to have Rose- I didn't want to go down the same path as a lot of Victorian books do where they live in poverty. And she arrives and she lives in the slums. I wanted to be different. So Rose meets Thomas and she makes friends with Agnes, of course, on the way, who is a budding singer. But it's Agnes that draws her into the underworld, unwittingly onto the underworld. But she meets Thomas, who worked at Macy's or was a manager at Macy's, and over time, they fall in love. So Ruth, she doesn't have it easy, but she does find love. And life, I suppose, is easier for her. I wanted it different to your typical ‘she lived in the slums and she struggled and..’ So one or two people have actually said to me how they’ve liked the fact that I took it down a different path. Although I have had 1 or 2 that have said: ‘Gosh she had it easy. Didn’t you have her in the slums?’ I said ‘No, because I didn't want to go down that path, cos not everybody, the majority of books do go down that.. And I wanted that different, you know.’ So they found that point interesting. When I was explaining it. So that's how Land of Opportunity, my first book, came about. Lynne (Interviewer) And you touched on a bit on the research and in your novel, you intertwine the lives of Rose and the fictional characters with people who were actually real and alive. Linda (Interviewee) They were. Lynne (Interviewer) How easy is that for you? Or difficult to, to combine those two worlds? Linda (Interviewee) I don't know, I just did. [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) People like Paul Kelly, Battle Axe Annie, now they did exist in those times. And I thought what great characters I have got to put them into my story. And there were many other characters that are in. But I must stress that, although they did exist, I have used them loosely, perhaps is the word, but not exact, because although it is an historical fiction, it is fiction. So although I put things that have happened like the Grover Shoe Factory blew up. I've got it, I think a month earlier, but we don't worry about that at that occasion, you know, when it happened. So yes, there are several characters and some of them didn't die until the 1950s, which I was amazed by. You know, Battle Axe Annie, she survived. She didn't die so I think it was [19]57 somewhere around there. Although I say it myself, I think she's a great character in my book. You know, she wheels her axe and if you upset her, Well, your head doesn't stay on for long. And Battle Axe Annie is leader of the Gopher Girls. Lynne (Interviewer) You did the chapters each fortnight with the group and then how did you go through the publishing process and what was that like for you? Linda (Interviewee) Oh, well, it's, it's a little bit demoralizing. Maybe it’s the word actually, because when you first start and of course, you've got to remember, I think about the writers’ group have gone: ‘Oh, it's a great story, Linda. You must send it out. It's brilliant.’ So you do everything that they tell you to do. And some want it in double spacing and other agents wanted in one and a half. And all this carry on, and you follow it by the rules and you send it off, and you get an email the next morning going, no, no, no, no interest to me. And you make a list of everyone you've sent it to, you know, and you and you, you sort of put - no good, no. And some don't even bother to reply. Lynne (Interviewer) Hmm Linda (Interviewee) So you don't even know whether they've read it or not. Some are fairly kind and they will give you maybe hints, but it isn't quite for them. You, you put rejection, rejection, and I got to eight nine rejections and I'm thinking it's not as good as they said it was. This is, it’s rubbish. They don't like it. And then all of a sudden, one Wednesday morning, the phone rang and I picked it off and Blossom Spring Publishers, got in touch and said that we really like your book, you know, and they would, they would like to go ahead and I went: ‘Oh that's nice. Ahhhhh!’ [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) And I thought, oh someone does like my book, you know. Oh wow. But it took another year after that. So it's not an easy thing. It's not straightforward. It's not something that happens over a few weeks or a few months, you know, because you've got to deal with them and, um, finance and all that sort of thing. And of course, the pictures have to be decided on, your book cover has to be decided on, although they were very good because they asked me if I thought of a picture for the book cover and I had I thought.. Cos I said I would like to see Rose and in the book when she's escaping on board ship, she actually goes to the charity basket, and she takes out some new clothes to wear. And I explained these clothes to them and what she's wearing, and she's got a little brown suitcase. And the book cover describes Rose just as I had described her, which I thought was lovely. And she's looking rather apprehensively at the Statue of Liberty, you know, and she's see, oh, what if I done? And she arrives at Ellis island, and she's made friends with Agnes on board ship. And while I was researching, I came across Ellis Island, the immigration building that they were in actually caught fire the actual day that she arrived caught fire. And I thought, oh I’ve got to put that in! Oh, wow. So I got that they got themselves registered and they were waiting to meet prospective buyers the next day, not night, of course, Agnes shakes her awake and she says: ‘We've got to run! The place, it's burning down’ she says ‘We’ve only just arrived they’re killing us off!’ And they all had to go back on the ship that they had been weeks on and come off and They all had to go back on there. And Agnes makes a quip about: ‘don't worry maybe Loverboy will come and rescue!’ Well, she no sooner said it then this voice is booming. Rose’s name out: ‘Rose Watson!’ he's shouting. And of course, they look over the railings and there he is. And he stayed the night at one of the hotels there, and he said he'd heard about the fire, so came to see if they needed help. And in doing so he took them home and from there things happened. Obviously, yes, love blossomed. Lynne (Interviewer) So you just had your second book published, so the next instalment of Rose’s life. Linda (Interviewee) My second book! Lynne (Interviewer) How did writing the second book compare with writing the first book? Linda (Interviewee) Well I think it was just as difficult to be honest. [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) Funnily enough, I think I did find the second book a little harder to write. I don't know why I did. But it took me a little longer and it's a little shorter than the first. It still covers Rose’s story and how she matures and how she goes into nursing. And, er, Thomas's two children, of course, are growing up and Isabella goes into nursing. Rose joins the Ladies Society, and they go to Ellis Island to help those that have just arrived, which is something that they didn't have. So they want to do that for the ladies, for the people, the mothers and the children that arrive. And they try and help them find work and that sort of thing. So that maybe there was a lot more research to be done for the second book. I mean, there was an awful lot for the first, but I think I struggled a little bit more because I think I thought maybe they expected more of the book than maybe was needed. Maybe that was just me. In the back of my mind was always, well, will this be as good as the first? Can I make it as good as the first? It's funny how we see things, isn't it? And how we think sometimes, you know. But I don't know why. But that played in the back of my mind that this movie must be as good as the first. The first book, of course, they finished off in the Catskills Mountains, and they have a cabin up there, and they're sat on the balcony. And Thomas has a letter from Harry Selfridge, because there is that connection there. And Harry Selfridge was opening up Selfridges in London, and he was offering them first class passage on the Titanic. And of course, the two were going, oh, it's just enormous. It's his biggest, this guy. And they were talking about this. And Rose quietly says, well, I hope the cabin will have room for a cot. And that's when they realize that she's expecting another little one. And that's where book one finishes. So book two literally starts in April 1912, and that is obviously the sinking of the Titanic and the [ship] that comes in, that goes to their aid. And, and that was an awful lot of research. And I came across things quite unexpectedly, such as when it first broke they informed everyone, the paper boys were shouting that all lives were saved, you know, because the ship had gone out to sea and all lives were saved. And it wasn't until the next morning that they realized that lives weren’t saved. And I was quite shocked to know about that. But it was the vulgarity of the newspaper people that really shocked me back in those days, because they went out in little ships to follow the boat in, and they were throwing money up at these survivors because they wanted stories off them. Fancy treating them like that, you know, and of course, the Straus family that owned Macy's department store, we lost them, and it was fascinating. I found it so interesting to read about the Straus family and Ida and their life on the Titanic, because their maid survived and Ida actually gave her her fur coat to keep her warm on the boat. Because Ida, of course, was the one that was on the boat and then stepped off, because she said, where my husband goes I go to. Because they had been married over 50 years and she wasn't going to leave him. But sadly, Ida went down with the boat, but her husband's body was found. Isidor Straus and he is buried in, you know, United States. And over the years, on many occasions, it was said that perhaps they should return him to the sea, because Ida’s on her own, you know, it's never happened. But I was reading into that and it was fascinating, so I think maybe I took an awful lot longer on research. And I have included this. Ingeborg, I haven't dwell on it too much, but it was an important time in 1912, and I thought it ought to be told. So I've tried to include it as the story, as it developed, you know, and that sort of thing. Yeah. [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) And so your second book's been published and have you started on your third? Linda (Interviewee) I've, uh, I've started on my third. What am I doing? [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] And how is that going? Linda (Interviewee) Well I’m up to Chapter 7. Yes. I did say to hubby, when he said to me, you've got to sort this book three dear. I said, go away. And then I sat down and I put book three chapter one: finished. [laughs] And I thought that would do, wouldn’t it? But apparently not. I needed to do more. So book three, of course, starts in 1914, which of course is the start of the First World War. That won't dominate the book, but it will be in the background because obviously it affects the family in certain ways. So it will run in the background. Yes, but it won't dominate the book. So yes, I'm on Chapter seven. Lynne (Interviewer) So you've talked very openly about your childhood and your life. What have been the biggest challenges for you? Linda (Interviewee) Um…Shall I say surviving? I think actually it's overcoming the pitfalls as a child because it wasn't, it wasn't easy, and to be brought up, being told that you're useless and don’t be silly. Of course, you can't write books, you know, only intelligent people write those sort of things. So you, you live with that. And I maybe it helps if I say when my first book was published, my first words to my husband were: ‘I'm not daft, am I. See, mother said I was useless. I'm not stupid, am I.’ Lynne (Interviewer) What have been the biggest highlights for you? Linda (Interviewee) Um…marrying my husband, bless him, and having our children. They're wonderful. And, of course, getting the book published. Believing that I could do it. Yes, I suppose it's that really. Yes. Lynne (Interviewer) So we're nearly at the end now Linda. I've just wondered, because I can see how important the characters in the book are, how real they are for you? Linda (Interviewee) They are there. Yes. Lynne (Interviewer) So who inspires you? Who drives you or what inspires you? Linda (Interviewee) It’s having my husband again, bless him, who believes in me and who loves me, bless him, and who makes me realize that I can do things. Of course the children. I think it is, it's as I've said, it's knowing so… I can do it. And I think it's important for anyone out there, young or old, that maybe likes writing, and maybe they have parents that were a bit like mine. And maybe they're not readers. Maybe they don't encourage their child to write, but they have a love of books and they have writing, to follow their dream because you can do it. I'm proof of that. I've done it. Much to my amazement [laughs] Lynne (Interviewer) [laughs] Linda (Interviewee) But I've done it. And I want them to know that although there are obstacles in the way you can overcome them, and you can achieve your dreams, you must follow them. You must. Yes, you must. OUTRO: Thank you for listening to Periplum’s Trailblazers Podcasts funded by the National Lottery Heritage Fund. To listen to more of the series, and follow our projects visit our website at periplumheritage.com